Is Djokovic an all-time great?

[Achilles82]

Originally Posted by El Nino

@Achilles82
Agree that Murray is better than all the guys you mentioned except Hewitt. 2xYear End Number 1, 2xGrand Slams and Masters Cup winner is pretty impressive (may have not been the strongest Era ever but all slams count) . I would say Andy and Lleyton are pretty even so far. Although Murrays likely to have the better Carrer by time he retires.

I'm talking about strictly who is better player. If Andy played in 2002, he would've been No1 easily. Andy Murray had more points as No3 then Lleyton as No1.

[kOaMaster]

Originally Posted by Achilles82

I'm talking about strictly who is better player. If Andy played in 2002, he would've been No1 easily. Andy Murray had more points as No3 then Lleyton as No1.

but you know they changed the ranking system?

[helloworld]

Originally Posted by Apun94

How are these absurd?? Djokovic is a better version of Agassi, no? How can you say otherwise?
Hasnt Nadal been beaten 7 straight times in the last 2 years? Hasnt Nole beaten Murray and Fed several times over the last 2 years?

How is Djokovic a better version of Agassi? Their games are as different as day and night. Nadal also owned Djokovic this year. Fed getting beaten by Nole most of the time?? Even old Fed managed to thrashed Djokovic a few times this year.

[sonicare]

Can someone name me one thing that agassi does clearly better than djokovic apart from maybe hitting half volleys from the baseline?

I want something that is clear as night and day. So don't come back with return or backhand cos those are debatable.

I can point to djokovic's movement which is on a different planet to agassi.

So, please bring forth your opinions.

To answer the original question. Djokovic is definitely an all time great. Not a GOAT candidate though. You dont pawn Nadal across 3 surfaces and 7 finals consecutively at his peak without being an all time great. Add to that, his game play when down is stuff of legends.

What the Djoker has shown is that his peak is as good as anyone. he lacks longevity but hopefully that will come.

[hoodjem]

Originally Posted by Apun94

How are these absurd?? Djokovic is a better version of Agassi, no? How can you say otherwise?
Hasnt Nadal been beaten 7 straight times in the last 2 years? Hasn't Nole beaten Murray and Fed several times over the last 2 years?

Is Agassi an all-time great?

[Steve0904]

Originally Posted by sonicare

Can someone name me one thing that agassi does clearly better than djokovic apart from maybe hitting half volleys from the baseline?

I want something that is clear as night and day. So don't come back with return or backhand cos those are debatable.

I can point to djokovic's movement which is on a different planet to agassi.

So, please bring forth your opinions.

Good point, but can you name me one (sane) person that would rate Djokovic's career above Agassi's at this point?

[Steve0904]

Originally Posted by hoodjem

Is Agassi an all-time great?

Another good point. I was going to say something like this in my first post in this thread before I edited it.

[90's Clay]

Originally Posted by sonicare

Can someone name me one thing that agassi does clearly better than djokovic apart from maybe hitting half volleys from the baseline?

I want something that is clear as night and day. So don't come back with return or backhand cos those are debatable.

I can point to djokovic's movement which is on a different planet to agassi.

So, please bring forth your opinions.

To answer the original question. Djokovic is definitely an all time great. Not a GOAT candidate though. You dont pawn Nadal across 3 surfaces and 7 finals consecutively at his peak without being an all time great. Add to that, his game play when down is stuff of legends.

What the Djoker has shown is that his peak is as good as anyone. he lacks longevity but hopefully that will come.

I can name more then one thing.

Agassi:

Better hand eye coordination
Better ROS
Cleaner swiper at the ball
Better BH
About equal FH
Better on grass
About the same on slow hard courts
Better fast hard court player
Better indoors
More aggressive from the baseline
Better ability to take the ball earlier
Harder hitter
Better all around fast surface player

[kragster]

He's definitely top 20 in my book but not yet a top 10 player and I say this as a huge fan. I expect him though to get to at least 8-9 and combined with his other records he should easily end up top 10( open era).

Djoker should end up a tier 2 great. There is a small chance of djokovic either exceeding ( becoming a tier 1 great) or underperforming ( remaining tier 3).

[sonicare]

Originally Posted by Steve0904

Good point, but can you name me one (sane) person that would rate Djokovic's career above Agassi's at this point?

Career...no. But IMO djokovic's peak/dominance is better than Agassi's

Originally Posted by 90's Clay

I can name more then one thing.

Agassi:

Better hand eye coordination
Better ROS
Cleaner swiper at the ball
Better BH
About equal FH
Better on grass
About the same on slow hard courts
Better fast hard court player
Better indoors
More aggressive from the baseline
Better ability to take the ball earlier
Harder hitter
Better all around fast surface player

LMAO...****ing troll. go back to your cave.

[Achilles82]

Originally Posted by kOaMaster

but you know they changed the ranking system?

Of course I know that. I've considered old ranking system.

If we take Llaytons results from 2001 which he finished as No1, in todays points he would have around 7300. I've considered points from masters 1000, grand slams, and 3 titles from 250 tour, and Tokyo which is 500.

Andy Murray has 8000 points, and is world No3

[dimeaxe]

Originally Posted by 90's Clay

Agassi:

Better hand eye coordination
Better ROS
Cleaner swiper at the ball
Better BH
About equal FH
Better on grass
About the same on slow hard courts
Better fast hard court player
Better indoors
More aggressive from the baseline
Better ability to take the ball earlier
Harder hitter

I watched Agassi since early '90s, and I'm sure you don't know what are you talking about.Agassi with better backhand and more aggressive,huh, Novak can create pace from backhand side that Agassi could only dream of.I remember when journalist asked Mardy Fish what's the secret about Novak's great ground strokes.He said he never plays two points the same way, he constantly changes the pace, direction and length of the shots especially of his backhand wing.Novak has much better forehand especially cross court forehand, better serve, ok Agassi had maybe a better ROS but everything else Novak does better, and you didn't mention the movement, it's incomparable.

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by 90's Clay

I can name more then one thing.

Agassi:

Better hand eye coordination
Better ROS
Cleaner swiper at the ball
Better BH
About equal FH
Better on grass
About the same on slow hard courts
Better fast hard court player
Better indoors
More aggressive from the baseline
Better ability to take the ball earlier
Harder hitter
Better all around fast surface player

Hard to say who is better indoors when there are almost no carpet and limited indoor events today, but Djokovic has two YEC now to only 1 for Agassi, and many years at the YEC Agassi didnt factor much, and IIRC he didnt win many indoor tournaments considering how many there were then, so I wouldnt be so sure about that. Otherwise I agree.

[90's Clay]

Originally Posted by dimeaxe

I watched Agassi since early '90s, and I'm sure you don't know what are you talking about.Agassi with better backhand and more aggressive,huh, Novak can create pace from backhand side that Agassi could only dream of.I remember when journalist asked Mardy Fish what's the secret about Novak's great ground strokes.He said he never plays two points the same way, he constantly changes the pace, and length of the shots especially of his backhand wing.Novak has much better forehand especially cross court forehand, better serve, ok Agassi had maybe a better ROS but everything else Novak does better, and you didn't mentioned the movement, it's incomparable.

Taking into account racket technology between today and Andre's time, I fail to see how ANYONE could say Nole is a harder hitter then Andre or cleaner hitter.

If Andre got to play with the poly strings back in the 90s-00s he may have won 13-14 plus slams. (Nole still only sitting on 5 right now)

Novak last year had a better FH but thats not the norm for Djoker's FH.. Actually is FH isn't all that great. I fail to see how its any better then Andre's was.'

Andre was also just flat out better between adapting his game between fast and slow surfaces. (something Nole doesn't have to worry about)

[Clarky21]

Originally Posted by sonicare

Can someone name me one thing that agassi does clearly better than djokovic apart from maybe hitting half volleys from the baseline?

I want something that is clear as night and day. So don't come back with return or backhand cos those are debatable.

I can point to djokovic's movement which is on a different planet to agassi.

So, please bring forth your opinions.

To answer the original question. Djokovic is definitely an all time great. Not a GOAT candidate though. You dont pawn Nadal across 3 surfaces and 7 finals consecutively at his peak without being an all time great. Add to that, his game play when down is stuff of legends.

What the Djoker has shown is that his peak is as good as anyone. he lacks longevity but hopefully that will come.

Nadal is far from his peak,and repeating this bs won't make it so.

And how much did Djesus get for Nadal when he pawned him? 50 bucks?

[Steve0904]

Originally Posted by sonicare

Career...no. But IMO djokovic's peak/dominance is better than Agassi's

Yes, and I know how much value you put into that, and Djokovic's career is far from over, but obviously Agassi done something right even if in your opinion he doesn't do one thing clearly better than Djokovic.

LMAO...****ing troll. go back to your cave.

I hate to say this because it's 90's clay, and not all of those are correct IMO, but some of them are.

[Steve0904]

Originally Posted by 90's Clay

Taking into account racket technology between today and Andre's time, I fail to see how ANYONE could say Nole is a harder hitter then Andre or cleaner hitter.

If Andre got to play with the poly strings back in the 90s he may have won 13-14 plus slams. (Nole still only sitting on 5 right now)

Novak last year had a better FH but thats not the norm for Djoker's FH.. Actually is FH isn't all that great. I fail to see how its any better then Andre's was.'

Andre was also just flat out better between adapting his game between fast and slow surfaces. (something Nole doesn't have to worry about)

What makes you say that? Nostalgia?

[90's Clay]

Originally Posted by Steve0904

What makes you say that? Nostalgia?

Andre was great at passing shots.. Andre with Poly strings which would help him put more zip on the ball (especially off the ROS) and his uncanny ability to take the ball early.

Even Andre has noted, playing with today's racket technology is almost "cheating" in a way

[dimeaxe]

Originally Posted by 90's Clay

Taking into account racket technology between today and Andre's time, I fail to see how ANYONE could say Nole is a harder hitter then Andre or cleaner hitter.

If Andre got to play with the poly strings back in the 90s he may have won 13-14 plus slams.

Novak last year had a better FH but thats not the norm for Djoker's FH.. Actually is FH isn't all that great. I fail to see how its any better then Andre's was.

I didn't say that Novak has great FH, Roger and Rafa r much better in this compartment, fH is bread and butter of their game, but Novak has much more balanced forehand and backhand.When you talk about poly strings you must consider all advantages and disadvantages of the racquets, balls and strings.In 90's they played with much softer balls than we have today.With softer balls and faster surfaces it's much easier to create spin of the ball than today. Today you must hit with full swing to rip the ball and create spin,and thus you need a bit more time to do this.Also, Agassi played with oversize racquet 107in.sq, and Novak plays with 98 in.sq, so Agassi played with bigger sweet spot than NovakYou didn't mention speed of both players, I remember Mats Wilander saying that Novak looks like Agassi game wise, but he's like twice as fast as Agassi...

[tudwell]

The real question is - who is better at net, Djokovic or Agassi?