Jeff Salzenstein Total Tennis

[wihamilton]

I recommend everyone watch this 60 Minutes interview:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7401696n

It's about Khan Academy and "flipping the classroom," a concept I think applies to learning tennis now and certainly into the future. And I think it clarifies the proper relationship between online and offline lessons.

[Torres]

Originally Posted by wihamilton

Takes a lot of expertise. Obviously, if you don't have it then it will take time to develop. But it's cheap to do. We started on a shoe-string budget and now high-quality cameras are incredibly cheap. Starting a website is free. .

Starting a website isn't free and hosting a website with all the data traffic that that consumes through multiple HD video streams/downloads isn't free either. Expertise comes from time and experience. FYB seems to have been around since the dawn of time, and I'm sure that you've made alot mistakes along the way and changed things year on year to figure out what works and doesn't work. FYB also had '1st mover' advantage. The stuff you produce now is very different to what produced when you first started.

Originally Posted by wihamilton

DNO and our other concepts resonate with a particular segment of the market.

The beginner segment. They don't know any better. DNO can be explained in 5 minutes, and in any event, its something a developing player would learn naturally as their game progresses. It's not something that needs several 1hr+ HD videos to explain.

But you're right - some people like that sort of thing. They seem to think that the longer the video the more or better content they're getting, which isn't necessarily the case.

Originally Posted by wihamilton

Those are the folks that buy our stuff. Don't fall into the trap of thinking because there's free information out there that people won't or shouldn't pay for coaching. People pay for results.

People will pay for stuff if they think it can get them results. And there's not a insignificant proportion of people who (mistakenly) think that by watching an hour long HD video, their game will suddenly go up 2 levels. I don't doubt that you are very successful with your sales towards a certain segment of the market. But there's no substitute for time on a tennis court. Salzenstein is much more realistic in my view and focuses more on the player's individual development, their progressions, and the work that they would have to put in.

Originally Posted by wihamilton

Sure, some or maybe all of the information a paid course is derived from might be free, but it's the packaging, the sequencing, the way it's explained that gets someone a particular result. That's what people are paying for. Very important distinction..

I am so glad that you've said that because it confirms my view of FYB. One of the critcisms of FYB, rightly or wrongly, is that its simply repackaged material. I still don't know what ninjas have to do with tennis. In my view alot of the stuff is unnecessarily strung out. I for one - and I know many others who would be of a similar mindset - would not wish to listen to you talk for an hour with a chalkboard behind you about something that's very simple eg. DNO with you talking formulas etc. It's a very basic concept. But like you say, some people go in for that sort of stuff. I'm just not one of them.

Originally Posted by wihamilton

I know an avid surfer who owns like 10 - 15 surf boards. Funny thing is, at any given time he can only use one. But because he loves surfing he keeps buying boards. Kind of like hardcore tennis players. They are constantly buying new rackets, shoes, and other gear..

Depends on what you mean by 'hardcore tennis player'. I don't know any higher level tennis player for example that buys a new racquet every few months. But you are right - there is a certain crowd who will buy a new racquet every few weeks, new bag, new Federer shirt, bandana, etc

Originally Posted by wihamilton

Constantly taking lessons. And what I've found is that many of our most loyal customers also buy from other online coaches. So the anecdotal evidence suggests otherwise.

I bought the Salzenstein serve course because I was intrigued by his background, his back story, the work which he had done on his own serve, the level of tennis which he played, liked his approach to coaching, his innovation (as opposed to repeating cliches), his focus on real world application, and wanted to see what he offered in terms of technique development. Nothing shiney in the packaging, no marketing at the expense substance, but once you starting digging into the content and peeling away the layers, you see that alot of thought has gone into what he's produced, that he has excellent eye for technique issues and detail.

I've subscribed in the past to the Yandell site as well. Some good articles and videos on there (apart from the video from a certain member on these forums).

There's nothing else that I've seen online that I would pay money for. It certainly wouldn't be any of the FYB courses. I just don't see anything on there that would be useful to me, and as you've confirmed in responses, your focus seems to be on packaging and presentation. I do like the visual quality of the videos you produce though. Seems to be a good resolution and the slow motion videos have a good FPS rate.

[Avles]

FYB isn't really my cup of tea either (my attention span is too short) but that doesn't mean it's a bad site by any means. If the information is solid and the explanations/demonstrations are clear, motivated players will be able to learn from it. It's a matter of preference more than anything I think.

Of course most online instruction is geared towards us low/intermediate level players. We're the biggest market, and we have the most to gain from seeing someone explain and demonstrate how to play. It's the same thing with books--the vast majority of tennis books that I've run across seem intended for lower-level players.

I think it's wrong to say that the only good instruction on the web comes Salzenstein and Yandell. Just off the top of my head there's Tae Byon, Heath Waters, Mauro and Kyril at the Tennis Vault, Cristophe Delavaut-- and there seem to be some great videos at tennisresources.com as well. I'm sure I'm missing some.

[Avles]

deleted....

[v-verb]

Originally Posted by wihamilton

I recommend everyone watch this 60 Minutes interview:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7401696n

It's about Khan Academy and "flipping the classroom," a concept I think applies to learning tennis now and certainly into the future. And I think it clarifies the proper relationship between online and offline lessons.

Will check it out.

I've been watching some of your free vids and so far I think they are quite good! I'll try a few things I picked up tonight and report back - thanks!

[wihamilton]

Originally Posted by Torres

I am so glad that you've said that because it confirms my view of FYB. One of the critcisms of FYB, rightly or wrongly, is that its simply repackaged material. I still don't know what ninjas have to do with tennis. In my view alot of the stuff is unnecessarily strung out. I for one - and I know many others who would be of a similar mindset - would not wish to listen to you talk for an hour with a chalkboard behind you about something that's very simple eg. DNO with you talking formulas etc. It's a very basic concept. But like you say, some people go in for that sort of stuff. I'm just not one of them.

Originally Posted by Torres

There's nothing else that I've seen online that I would pay money for. It certainly wouldn't be any of the FYB courses. I just don't see anything on there that would be useful to me, and as you've confirmed in responses, your focus seems to be on packaging and presentation. I do like the visual quality of the videos you produce though. Seems to be a good resolution and the slow motion videos have a good FPS rate.

You've taken what I said out of context. Everything we do is focused on getting results for our students. How things are explained, both orally and visually, is incredibly important toward achieving that goal. So to say that we're just focused on "packaging and presentation" misses the reason we place such a heavy emphasis on it.

You asked early why I spent $35,000 licensing match footage. I did that because I believed showing the pros playing points and breaking them down on my tablet was an excellent way to demonstrate how to construct points so that people "got it." That's packaging and presentation. Interestingly, that was probably the #1 request we got from our audience: "show the pros doing the strategy stuff you talk about on the dry-erase board."

(Bought that dry-erase board a few years back because I was trying to figure out how best to explain strategies & tactics. Where to hit the ball. So it's a constant evolution.)

[the cat petter]

This is going quite off topic now...

[sureshs]

Does anyone know how many ATP and WTA pros have used an online tennis instruction website?

[kiteboard]

Originally Posted by Torres

Starting a website isn't free and hosting a website with all the data traffic that that consumes through multiple HD video streams/downloads isn't free either. Expertise comes from time and experience. FYB seems to have been around since the dawn of time, and I'm sure that you've made alot mistakes along the way and changed things year on year to figure out what works and doesn't work. FYB also had '1st mover' advantage. The stuff you produce now is very different to what produced when you first started.



The beginner segment. They don't know any better. DNO can be explained in 5 minutes, and in any event, its something a developing player would learn naturally as their game progresses. It's not something that needs several 1hr+ HD videos to explain.

But you're right - some people like that sort of thing. They seem to think that the longer the video the more or better content they're getting, which isn't necessarily the case.



People will pay for stuff if they think it can get them results. And there's not a insignificant proportion of people who (mistakenly) think that by watching an hour long HD video, their game will suddenly go up 2 levels. I don't doubt that you are very successful with your sales towards a certain segment of the market. But there's no substitute for time on a tennis court. Salzenstein is much more realistic in my view and focuses more on the player's individual development, their progressions, and the work that they would have to put in.



I am so glad that you've said that because it confirms my view of FYB. One of the critcisms of FYB, rightly or wrongly, is that its simply repackaged material. I still don't know what ninjas have to do with tennis. In my view alot of the stuff is unnecessarily strung out. I for one - and I know many others who would be of a similar mindset - would not wish to listen to you talk for an hour with a chalkboard behind you about something that's very simple eg. DNO with you talking formulas etc. It's a very basic concept. But like you say, some people go in for that sort of stuff. I'm just not one of them.



Depends on what you mean by 'hardcore tennis player'. I don't know any higher level tennis player for example that buys a new racquet every few months. But you are right - there is a certain crowd who will buy a new racquet every few weeks, new bag, new Federer shirt, bandana, etc



I bought the Salzenstein serve course because I was intrigued by his background, his back story, the work which he had done on his own serve, the level of tennis which he played, liked his approach to coaching, his innovation (as opposed to repeating cliches), his focus on real world application, and wanted to see what he offered in terms of technique development. Nothing shiney in the packaging, no marketing at the expense substance, but once you starting digging into the content and peeling away the layers, you see that alot of thought has gone into what he's produced, that he has excellent eye for technique issues and detail.

I've subscribed in the past to the Yandell site as well. Some good articles and videos on there (apart from the video from a certain member on these forums).

There's nothing else that I've seen online that I would pay money for. It certainly wouldn't be any of the FYB courses. I just don't see anything on there that would be useful to me, and as you've confirmed in responses, your focus seems to be on packaging and presentation. I do like the visual quality of the videos you produce though. Seems to be a good resolution and the slow motion videos have a good FPS rate.

It's called defamation. Not just one video either. Anyone arguing with this guy: he's been banned before for the crazy things he says. It's only a matter of time before he's banned again.

[JohnYandell]

Suresh,

Well I know for a fact that Djokovic has used Tennisplayer because he and Todd Martin used it to try to undo the havoc on his serve 2-3 years ago.

I know about several other top coaches that have: Brad Gilbert, Craig Kardon, Pat Etcheberry, Myles MacLagan, and Carlos Rodriquez. Those guys have all coached Slam winners. USTA coaches like Jay Berger and Mike Sell who have worked with top recent Americans. Pat Mac loves the site. (His verb not mine.)

And to relate slightly to this thread, Salzy and I used it extensively when he was working with me on his serve and backhand. Ditto Paul Goldstein on his serve.

We don't publicize the names but we have deals with multiple international coaching federations, including countries with players at the very top of tennis--can't track those players or coaches but the access logs are heavy.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

Suresh,

Well I know for a fact that Djokovic has used Tennisplayer because he and Todd Martin used it to try to undo the havoc on his serve 2-3 years ago.

I know about several other top coaches that have: Brad Gilbert, Craig Kardon, Pat Etcheberry, Myles MacLagan, and Carlos Rodriquez. Those guys have all coached Slam winners. USTA coaches like Jay Berger and Mike Sell who have worked with top recent Americans. Pat Mac loves the site. (His verb not mine.)

And to relate slightly to this thread, Salzy and I used it extensively when he was working with me on his serve and backhand. Ditto Paul Goldstein on his serve.

We don't publicize the names but we have deals with multiple international coaching federations, including countries with players at the very top of tennis--can't track those players or coaches but the access logs are heavy.

DJ, Gilbert, Berger, Salzi etc have used your site? Wow. That's fantastic.
Nice going.
That reminds me, I think it's time I rejoin tennisplayer again.

[JohnYandell]

I was thinking about taking a swim in the rain and I thought of a few more:

Tim Mayotte, Gene Mayer, Sandy Mayer.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

Suresh,

Well I know for a fact that Djokovic has used Tennisplayer because he and Todd Martin used it to try to undo the havoc on his serve 2-3 years ago.

I know about several other top coaches that have: Brad Gilbert, Craig Kardon, Pat Etcheberry, Myles MacLagan, and Carlos Rodriquez. Those guys have all coached Slam winners. USTA coaches like Jay Berger and Mike Sell who have worked with top recent Americans. Pat Mac loves the site. (His verb not mine.)

And to relate slightly to this thread, Salzy and I used it extensively when he was working with me on his serve and backhand. Ditto Paul Goldstein on his serve.

We don't publicize the names but we have deals with multiple international coaching federations, including countries with players at the very top of tennis--can't track those players or coaches but the access logs are heavy.

That is good to know. And I already knew about the federations being your customers as you had mentioned it before.

What I meant was the teaching videos rather than slow motion high frame rate pro videos. I mean, does any pro look at a serve instruction video to see if there is something he could gain from it?

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

DJ, Gilbert, Berger, Salzi etc have used your site? Wow. That's fantastic.
Nice going.
That reminds me, I think it's time I rejoin tennisplayer again.

I was one of the early customers for a year. Then I could not find time to go through the material. I still get all of JY's emails.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by kiteboard

It's called defamation. Not just one video either. Anyone arguing with this guy: he's been banned before for the crazy things he says. It's only a matter of time before he's banned again.

It does not rise to the level of defamation, especially with the subject also posting in this thread. The comments were definitely nasty, particularly because the subject did not make any claims to provoke that kind of reaction. But I don't think it is defamation - just strong negative opinions.

[NLBwell]

Originally Posted by Torres

clearly there are people who will pay that. They seem to have more money than sense

At least they have way more sense than most golf hackers.

[JohnYandell]

Suresh,

I think that's the beauty of the design. That there are two halves to the site--the high speed archives that allow people to figure things out for themselves--or at least study things for themselves...

And the articles. I know some of the coaching guys mentioned read articles--usually the ones I write using the high speed video. Players? Not sure about that one.

Glad to know you were a subscriber!

[Torres]

Originally Posted by wihamilton

You asked early why I spent $35,000 licensing match footage.

You've missed the point. Banding around a $35k figure is just hardsell marketing. It has nothing to do with the quality of the instruction. How about I spend $100k licensing video footage? Does that make my course better than yours?

And BTW, this thread is about Salzenstein, not an opportunity for you to try and plug FYB. Start your own thread if you really must.

[wihamilton]

Originally Posted by Torres

And BTW, this thread is about Salzenstein, not an opportunity for you to try and plug FYB. Start your own thread if you really must.

Originally Posted by treblings

let me just re-read the thread to see who started critizising fyb

I really like constructive criticism and appreciate it when people take the time to let me know what they honestly think. But the Internet is a funny place. People will say things on a forum they would never say to someone in real life. And sometimes people just like to stir the pot. This is how I typically handle those situations:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Don't_feed_the_Troll

So for the purposes of this discussion...

Seacrest out.

[Jim A]

I met Jeff when I started playing again in '08, he was teaching out of Gates/JCC in Denver. Always found up him to be engaging and able to work well with people. He excelled with good Jr players and open level adults. He was always quick with a quick tip or piece of info if asked though.

I make it a point to check out his items on YouTube and when he worked on that 4.0 to 4.5 project blog.

If I didn't have a pro I enjoyed working with and who has a good technical plan in place for improving my game I'd sign up for his website. If you like the technical part of it, he's a great person to learn from instead of just hearing "good, good, good" from someone feeding you balls over and over.

If I were a former ATP pro and NCAA champion I'd promote the hell out of it as well.