Stats for Ashe-Connors (1975 W final)

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Nadal_Power

O.k, my stats for this match. Service winners are all points that server won just with one shot, so aces or unreturned services. Its hard to split forced and unforced errors in match with such a quick and short points, but I give my best.

I set :

Arthur Ashe                                        Jimmy Connors

27/39       Total points won                       12/39 
16/11/5     Services (total/first/second)          23/16/7
9/11        Points won on first serve              5/16
3/5         Points won on second serve             3/7
15/23       Return points won                      4/16
17/23       Returned services                      13/16
7/10        Wing of serve return (fh/bh)           9/4
7           Winners                                4
3           Service winners                        5
2           Unforced Errors                        11                    
/           Double faults                          1 
3/3         Break points                           /    
1           Service games without lost point       /
18          Rallies 1-4 (28)                       10
9           Rallies 5-8 (11)                       2 
            Rallies 9-12 (/)                       
                       
Average number of shots in points in first set : 3,58 
Average number of shots in points in first set on Ashe's serve   : 3,37 
Average number of shots in points in first set on Connor's serve : 3,73

II set :

Arthur Ashe                                        Jimmy Connors

30/48       Total points won                       18/48
28/20/8     Services (total/first/second)          20/11/9
14/20       Points won on first serve              5/11
5/8         Points won on second serve             4/9
11/20       Return points won                      9/28
18/20       Returned services                      18/28
11/7        Wing of serve return (fh/bh)           10/8
8           Winners                                8
9           Service winners                        2
6           Unforced Errors                        7                    
1           Double faults                          / 
2/4         Break points                           0/1    
/           Service games without lost point       /
20          Rallies 1-4 (32)                       12
8           Rallies 5-8 (12)                       4 
2           Rallies 9-12 (4)                       2
                       
Average number of shots in points in second set : 4 
Average number of shots in points in second set on Ashe's serve    : 3 
Average number of shots in points in second set on Connors's serve : 5,4

III set :

Arthur Ashe                                        Jimmy Connors

44/88       Total points won                       44/88
35/26/9     Services (total/first/second)          53/41/12
17/26       Points won on first serve              22/41
4/9         Points won on second serve             8/12
23/53       Return points won                      14/35
42/53       Returned services                      22/35
17/25       Wing of serve return (fh/bh)           10/12
9           Winners                                21
12          Service winners                        10
10          Unforced Errors                        14                    
1           Double faults                          1 
1/9         Break points                           2/2    
/           Service games without lost point       /
31          Rallies 1-4 (62)                       31
12          Rallies 5-8 (25)                       13 
/           Rallies 9-12 (/)                       /
1           Rallies 13+ (1)                        /
                       
Average number of shots in points in third set : 3,54
Average number of shots in points in third set on Ashe's serve    : 2,85 
Average number of shots in points in third set on Connors's serve : 4

IV set :

Arthur Ashe                                        Jimmy Connors

34/61       Total points won                       27/61
26/20/6     Services (total/first/second)          35/30/5
14/20       Points won on first serve              15/30
3/6         Points won on second serve             3/5
17/35       Return points won                      9/26
24/35       Returned services                      16/26
5/19        Wing of serve return (fh/bh)           9/7
9           Winners                                10
10          Service winners                        10
3           Unforced Errors                        6                   
/           Double faults                          1
2/5         Break points                           1/1 
/           Service games without lost point       /
26          Rallies 1-4 (49)                       23
8           Rallies 5-8 (12)                       4
/           Rallies 9-12 (/)                       /
                                             
Average number of shots in points in fourth set : 3,26
Average number of shots in points in fourth set on Ashe's serve  : 2,92 
Average number of shots in points in fourth set on Connors's serve  : 3,51

Match stats :

Arthur Ashe                                        Jimmy Connors

135/236     Total points won                       101/236
105/77/28   Services (total/first/second)          131/98/33
54/77       Points won on first serve              47/98
15/28       Points won on second serve             18/33
66/131      Return points won                      36/105
101/131     Returned services                      69/105
40/61       Wing of serve return (fh/bh)           38/31
33          Winners                                43
34          Service winners                        27
21          Unforced Errors                        38                  
2           Double faults                          3
8/21        Break points                           3/4
1           Service games without lost point       /
95          Rallies 1-4 (171)                      76 
37          Rallies 5-8 (60)                       23
2           Rallies 9-12 (4)                       2
1           Rallies +13 (1)                        /  
                                             
Average number of shots in points in match : 3,58 
Average number of shots in points in match on Ashe's serve  : 3 
Average number of shots in points in match on Connors's serve  : 4

Well this is an incredible level of detail, and very interesting. I'll have a closer look at everything, but a few things stand out.

Connors, again, had lower success on first serve (48%) than on second (55%). We see that in a lot of his matches. It was true also when he lost to Newk in Australia.

These stats were simply not available at the time, and I wonder what, if anything, Connors would have done if he or someone in his circle had realized that he had matches like this, in which his first serve was not working for him the way it should.

On this board we see such numbers and we don't necessarily know the reason that someone's numbers might turn out this way, but I'm sure that experts and analysts of the time would have had some ideas about it.

Ashe's numbers look solid: 70% on first serve and 54% on second.

[krosero]

Nadal_Power, a couple of other observations about your stats.

Connors made most of his successful returns with his forehand -- just slightly more than he made with his backhand. (And that was true in each of the sets individually -- except the third set.) That might mean that his FH return was better than his BH return, though we can't say that without a breakdown of his return errors by wing. Perhaps Ashe served more often to his FH wing, which would have allowed Connors to amass a large number of successful FH returns.

Ashe's return numbers are simpler: a solid majority of his successful returns were backhands. He was known for a great backhand, so no surprise there. However, as above, there's always the possibility that these numbers result from the direction that the server was choosing. That is, Connors may have been serving more often to the BH.

In the third set Connors had only 2 chances to break Ashe, while Ashe had 9 chances. Yet Connors took the set, because he converted both his chances, while managing to fight off nearly all the break points he faced.

I saw no discrepancies with my stats, except that I have 28 service winners of every kind by Connors. I counted 6 in the opening set: 3 in Jimmy's first service game, two more in his second and one more in his last.

Question: do your unforced errors include the double-faults?

[Nadal_Power]

I probably should but no, double faults are not in unforced errors

In his second service game of first set Jimmy made only one service winner (3rd point of the game), other 7 services Arthur returned well

Yeah, 3rd set was a real steal, Jimmy was again below 50% on his first serve

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Nadal_Power

I probably should but no, double faults are not in unforced errors

In his second service game of first set Jimmy made only one service winner (3rd point of the game), other 7 services Arthur returned well

Yeah, 3rd set was a real steal, Jimmy was again below 50% on his first serve

Jimmy made that service winner, and on the next point he has another when Arthur's return is called out. The call is not loud, and Connors just drills the next shot crosscourt, apparently getting a letcord winner. Confusing moment, and the commentators say nothing. But it's the same linesman's voice on Jimmy's opening service point of the second set.

I think double-faults are included in UE totals today, but that has not always been true. I was just curious how you were doing it.

So 41 unforced errors by Connors, compared to only 23 by Ashe. Has to be considered one of the keys to the match, glad you did that stat.

One other question about your UE, do you ever judge a service return as unforced? Or do you just list all failed returns as service winners?

Basically what I'm asking is whether your totals for UE and service winners are entirely separate, or whether there's some overlap.

[Nadal_Power]

Originally Posted by krosero

Jimmy made that service winner, and on the next point he has another when Arthur's return is called out. The call is not loud, and Connors just drills the next shot crosscourt, apparently getting a letcord winner. Confusing moment, and the commentators say nothing. But it's the same linesman's voice on Jimmy's opening service point of the second set.

I think double-faults are included in UE totals today, but that has not always been true. I was just curious how you were doing it.

So 41 unforced errors by Connors, compared to only 23 by Ashe. Has to be considered one of the keys to the match, glad you did that stat.

One other question about your UE, do you ever judge a service return as unforced? Or do you just list all failed returns as service winners?

Basically what I'm asking is whether your totals for UE and service winners are entirely separate, or whether there's some overlap.

You are right, but the judge was really not loud enough I will fix that

No, they are just service winners and not UE.. I saw a lot of bad easy returns in this and in 1981. final but I just put them in service winners and not in unforced errors

I have stats for 1999. final too, maybe I can post them in thread about that match

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Nadal_Power

You are right, but the judge was really not loud enough I will fix that

No, they are just service winners and not UE.. I saw a lot of bad easy returns in this and in 1981. final but I just put them in service winners and not in unforced errors

I have stats for 1999. final too, maybe I can post them in thread about that match

Okay thanks, so the unforced errors might tick up a little higher. I guess those additional UE's errors would be Ashe's, because Connors' serve was not overwhelming and Jimmy was not always coming in behind it. Yesterday when I rewatched the first set I saw Arthur make at least one easy return error.

Ashe's serves by contrast were more forcing; and he was coming in behind all of them. So I'm guessing none of Connors' return errors are going to be UE's.

'99 final is here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=185518

You referring to the '81 Wimbledon final? Do you have a complete copy? The BBC copy that everyone has is incomplete, with service faults cut out: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=214455.

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by krosero

You referring to the '81 Wimbledon final? Do you have a complete copy? The BBC copy that everyone has is incomplete, with service faults cut out: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=214455.

Wow, that's strange. I never noticed that. Good spot.

[kiki]

The 1981 Wimbledon semi is one of the most exhilarating matches ever played at Wimbledon and a true hommage to the greatness of both players

[Nadal_Power]

Originally Posted by krosero

Okay thanks, so the unforced errors might tick up a little higher. I guess those additional UE's errors would be Ashe's, because Connors' serve was not overwhelming and Jimmy was not always coming in behind it. Yesterday when I rewatched the first set I saw Arthur make at least one easy return error.

Ashe's serves by contrast were more forcing; and he was coming in behind all of them. So I'm guessing none of Connors' return errors are going to be UE's.

'99 final is here: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=185518

You referring to the '81 Wimbledon final? Do you have a complete copy? The BBC copy that everyone has is incomplete, with service faults cut out: http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=214455.

Yeah, in point description I always put some remark about bad return but mu English is not great so I can't translate the full match analysis point by point

O.k, maybe today I will post stats in that thread.. hope they will be o.k

No I don't have it m8 and I read that thread about problems with first serves cut out.. I just done stats with few sources I found, but not all points are recorded and many first serves are out.. its so frustrating