mxmx serve

[boramiNYC]

Originally Posted by mxmx

I have a problem though...even though I want to do what you are speaking of...lead with the hip like a bow, land on the left leg and whatnot...i kind of have a bad left knee (overuse aside from tennis or possible injury). In this vid, my leg and hip movement is not what it normally is or what i would like it to be...

It sometimes feels like i really land quite hard on the left foot...and even in my groundstrokes my split step is sometimes too hard.
I am actually trying to learn a less demanding technique on the knee without having to only use my arm, and without losing power. Not sure if thats possible...but compromise is...so somewhere I will need to compromise.

no, actually in your video your jump is just about the same height as sampras in above photos. if your knees hurt currently serving, you don't really have to jump. keep your left foot on the ground and just kick back with your right leg for balance. It might give you more consistency actually. and the loss of power is not that much actually. if you try this your stance should be turned even more left. see how your left foot is pointing when landing. closer to there for your left foot.

[mxmx]

Originally Posted by charliefedererer

The pronation pic is of a twist serve, so there is slightly less ulnar deviation at the wrist than a first serve.

Still, check out this video from Jim McLennan:
Racquet Angle on Serve http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1t6bLABbebc


I was surprised at how few pics I could find of male players taken from directly in front or behind at ball impact to show the angles at their wrist and elbow.
But here are two I found:

Murray serving:


Ferrero serving





You say you have a "bad knee". Is there osteoarthritis or some type of tendon/ligament problem? If not, you may find you can have stronger legs - to help protect the knee joint - from doing squats and deadlifts, even if the weight lifted is quite modest.

Thanks for the video and great pics. I will try and post a vid of my second serve one day...but i never really thought or realised as much that a angled wrist works differently with different serves.

As for my knee...i would say its probably a little of everything you mentioned.
I once jumped and reached for a ball stuck in a fence, which made my knee more sensitive years back. But this may sound funny, but my car clutch combined with traffic, is placing too much strain on the knee. Combine it with this and that, and you sit with a overworked knee. I would not say i have weak legs in the sense that it needs muscle to protect it. But what is very strange is that my knee would very erratically "decide" for itsself it wants to be sore that day...not having done anything strange. My knee almost gets in a bad mood lol.

[mxmx]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

no, actually in your video your jump is just about the same height as sampras in above photos. if your knees hurt currently serving, you don't really have to jump. keep your left foot on the ground and just kick back with your right leg for balance. It might give you more consistency actually. and the loss of power is not that much actually. if you try this your stance should be turned even more left. see how your left foot is pointing when landing. closer to there for your left foot.

I'm not very tall though. But maybe i should give this a try on bad days.

[charliefedererer]

The above pictures of Sam Stosur's kick serve and the following have been posted here on Talk Tennis by Anatoly Anopin. You might want to read the original threads at:
Kick serve - How do you brush? http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=6978051
Seriously About Pronation and Kick Serve #1 http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=361610

The following photo sequence by Toly clearly shows that to get the rapid spin on a kick serve, the ulnar deviation has to be occuring very rapidly while the ball is being struck, and the ball is rolling along the surface of the raqcuet.


To get that most rapid phase of ulnar deviation to produce the maximum amount of spin, the racquet has to strike the ball lower than on a flat serve, with the "brushing up" on the ball occurring as a result of that fast ulnar deviation.

If you read the original thread Toly cogently points out that it is ulnar deviation that is responsible for almost all the spin, not the action of the arm swinging (although some might counter that the ulnar deviation is largely a passive result of the heavy racqhet being being thrown up).

So in pic one below, he points out the arm is moving forward, while it is the ulnar deviation that is doing the brushing in pic 2:






On the other hand, in a first serve the ball is struck more in front of you, and by that time the ulnar deviation has largely occurred, with any residual ulnar deviation slower than during a kick serve.

You really should get checked out and see what the problem is what that knee.
It may mean a big difference in whether you need to take some time off, or whether there is some strengthening regimen that could help you come back with less problems.

A worry is that articular cartilage does not contain pain sensors, so it isn't until the overlying joint space itself becomes inflammed that pain occurs.
And jumping and landing on that left knee, which you also pump the clutch with, could become a bigger problem if you continue the way you are.

[pvaudio]

CF, I know you're trying to help, but you really are making things so much more complicated and confusing than they need to be regarding the serving images. His serve is not that bad, and yes it could use some work, but showing four different players' serve sequences probably isn't the way to go about it when he's not going to become a pro.

[LeeD]

Bad left knee.... no problem.
Stand much more back to target.
Pivot off your bad left leg and LAND on your good right leg.
BrianGottfried served like this, as did a few other guys, maybe Becker.
The pivot affect gives you twist power, so you don't need to jump as high, or not jump at all.
I find, at 63 now, I can serve full speed flat serves without jumping, around 100mph, because by not jumping, I can serve with more precision.
Don't jump. Instead, pivot and twist into your serves.

[mxmx]

Originally Posted by charliefedererer

You really should get checked out and see what the problem is what that knee.
It may mean a big difference in whether you need to take some time off, or whether there is some strengthening regimen that could help you come back with less problems.

A worry is that articular cartilage does not contain pain sensors, so it isn't until the overlying joint space itself becomes inflammed that pain occurs.
And jumping and landing on that left knee, which you also pump the clutch with, could become a bigger problem if you continue the way you are.

Hmmm....to be honest, i think traffic is the worst thing for my knee...the clutch stepping is too hard and regular. I am fine with groundstrokes. So this weekend, i specifically tried to serve less with my left leg....almost standing at times and a longer warmup. Earlier you guys advised me to lift my left shoulder more, and strangely enough, I had huge serves, almost faster than normal, even without my healthy knee.

Not to self diagnose or anything:
But the pain seems to be on the actual patella, or patella tendon....middle of knee. Not sure if its bone or tendon though (although it feels more like bone than tendon at times), but feels more on outer layers than the insides....
http://www.ismoc.net/images/knee_rev.jpg

[mxmx]

Originally Posted by pvaudio

CF, I know you're trying to help, but you really are making things so much more complicated and confusing than they need to be regarding the serving images. His serve is not that bad, and yes it could use some work, but showing four different players' serve sequences probably isn't the way to go about it when he's not going to become a pro.

I take some parts, and reject other parts...still interesting though.
Not planning to make drastic changes on my serves for now (my double backhand is priority)...but its good to know some technical things, even though i won't necc apply all of it.

[mxmx]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Bad left knee.... no problem.
Stand much more back to target.
Pivot off your bad left leg and LAND on your good right leg.
BrianGottfried served like this, as did a few other guys, maybe Becker.
The pivot affect gives you twist power, so you don't need to jump as high, or not jump at all.
I find, at 63 now, I can serve full speed flat serves without jumping, around 100mph, because by not jumping, I can serve with more precision.
Don't jump. Instead, pivot and twist into your serves.

My plan is to do what you speak, except not jump and land with the right knee. I plan to basically focus less on jumping with just the left leg. I think my forward motion put too much strain on the left leg, causing it to do most of the work when jumping (hard to see on the vid, but thinking back, i think it does most of the jump work). I need to either focus to jump with both legs to distribute the work, or jump less. Backward to forward rocking/momentum should naturally make me land on left foot, instead of trying to jump left and land left.

The *more* shoulder lift thing PSV and Charliefederer mentioned, definitely seems to have been an awesome tip - i had to toss the ball higher and had less disguise, but my power increased with less effort.

[watungga]

The jump is more of an instinct as the game progressed into hot-lava level.

You should do it unintentionally with hundreds of balls whose primary goal is precision.

[charliefedererer]

Originally Posted by mxmx

My plan is to do what you speak, except not jump and land with the right knee. I plan to basically focus less on jumping with just the left leg. I think my forward motion put too much strain on the left leg, causing it to do most of the work when jumping (hard to see on the vid, but thinking back, i think it does most of the jump work). I need to either focus to jump with both legs to distribute the work, or jump less. Backward to forward rocking/momentum should naturally make me land on left foot, instead of trying to jump left and land left.

The *more* shoulder lift thing PSV and Charliefederer mentioned, definitely seems to have been an awesome tip - i had to toss the ball higher and had less disguise, but my power increased with less effort.

Pushing off with both legs is exactly what you optimally should be doing. (I'm just a bit worried with that knee though.)

With a deeper knee bend, and the with your tossing shoulder pointed straight up, it will seem that the ball is a lot further away than it used to be with your old motion as you look up at it.

But as you launch yourself up at the ball, you will really feel what Pat Dougherty, the Bollettieri Camp "Serve Doc" describes in hitting "up the mountain".
"Up the Mountain" excerpt form Serve Doctor presents: M.P.H. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlPVdppfYGs

And you will need to learn to land in different way - on that left leg.
Leg Kick on Tennis Serve http://blip.tv/fuzzy-yellow-balls/le...-serve-1190196
If your back (right) leg is kicking straight back, it means you are getting your weight moving into the court - if it is going to the side, you are not getting your weight moving first up and into the court.



But ...

You mentioned that your knee is already bothering you.


So if all this pushing off and jumping and landing is making you worse, you can still have an effective serve using your body, without a really big leg push off.

"The Serve Doctor" has hints on how to hit this serve, still using your body to hit up the mountain:
Serve Doctor's Simplified Spring-loaded Serve Technique Serve http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixx-MCC7D88



When/if the knee is better, may be a better time to work on that big leg push off and left leg landing with the right leg kick back.

[mxmx]

Originally Posted by watungga

The jump is more of an instinct as the game progressed into hot-lava level.

You should do it unintentionally with hundreds of balls whose primary goal is precision.

With my serve, this is normally the case. Sometimes, with my knee, its a different story.

[mxmx]

Originally Posted by charliefedererer

Pushing off with both legs is exactly what you optimally should be doing. (I'm just a bit worried with that knee though.)

With a deeper knee bend, and the with your tossing shoulder pointed straight up, it will seem that the ball is a lot further away than it used to be with your old motion as you look up at it.

Yes i agree...i do however toss the ball higher in this instance, else my timing is off. A higher ball toss seems to give me better timing and power...flow motion...but what i really dislike, is that disguise harder to do with it and some opponents read these serves better. I suppose it wont matter if the serve is good enough though.

And you will need to learn to land in different way - on that left leg.
Leg Kick on Tennis Serve http://blip.tv/fuzzy-yellow-balls/le...-serve-1190196
If your back (right) leg is kicking straight back, it means you are getting your weight moving into the court - if it is going to the side, you are not getting your weight moving first up and into the court.

I think i need to arguably land closer to the baseline, and not as deep. Except maybe when i want to serve and volley.

But ...
You mentioned that your knee is already bothering you.

What I don't understand about this knee, is that it comes and goes. To me that says something external is happening - like clutch or weather?

So if all this pushing off and jumping and landing is making you worse, you can still have an effective serve using your body, without a really big leg push off.

Im not sure that its making it worse per say...it is however uncomfortable doing it.

When/if the knee is better, may be a better time to work on that big leg push off and left leg landing with the right leg kick back.

Yes...for now, i will need to use a much less demanding serve and do as you say. It worked the past weekend....so it can only improve. When the knee is better, i can maybe use more legs, but who knows, by that time maybe it wont even be needed. The ball toss and shoulder thing really feels like a solution so far.
Thankfully i don't have much knee problems on the groundstrokes that i know of.

ps. That up the mountain serve "pitching concept" vid is quite good thanks. I learned something similar once from a coach, but totally forgot this concept and it is a good reminder.

The simpler version with the girl serving, makes a lot of sense...but seems like a drastic serve to learn...it would mean me moving from a platform serve, to a pinpoint serve.

[LeeD]

The archer's bow is to help you angle your swing upwards, helping you jump upwards and into the court, adding swing speed to your racket.
Like a cartwheel, if you increase it's moment of action, you can increase it's axxis of rotation.

[mxmx]

Originally Posted by LeeD

The archer's bow is to help you angle your swing upwards, helping you jump upwards and into the court, adding swing speed to your racket.
Like a cartwheel, if you increase it's moment of action, you can increase it's axxis of rotation.

Well...the shoulder thing is definitely working for me so far (so thanks guys)....I am also considering to have my back foot slightly further angled, but not sure if thats a good idea. I just cant get my head around the pronation thing without "almost hitting myself" - it makes sense that I should eventually end with my racket around my body, which I don't.

ps. New rackets also helping my serve - will try and update the vid sometime using them instead.

[MarinaHighTennis]

Are you wearing supras?

[mxmx]

Originally Posted by MarinaHighTennis

Are you wearing supras?

No...they are not my usual tennis shoes. They are nike skateboard sneakers with velcro straps :P

[LeeD]

Some coaches have been advocating the application of a ready position at the end of the service motion, since modern tennis allows the returner to get the ball back much faster than the old daze.
You end your motion in a relaxed, non ready position with arm dangling by your sides and feet together.
Swing faster.

[mikeler]

I'd like to see a little more body turn. I'm not saying start out like Johnny Mac with your back to your opponent but just a little more body turn might gain you a few MPHs.

[LeeD]

Post #4.
It's not your stance with your feet, it's your body and shoulder alignment that takes away potential trunk power twisting into the serves.