Ever had another captain/team get shady?

[atatu]

Originally Posted by bobbything

A number of years ago, we were in line to win our 4.5 league. However, someone complained about one of our players so the USTA kicked him out with one match remaing and subsequently, all his match wins were reversed. So, going into the last match, we were still in 1st place. We had our bye the final week, so we didn't play. However, if the 2nd place team won their final match, 4-1, they would have had the tiebreaker over us.

The next day I looked at the scores to see if the 1st place team won or lost. Well, they won 5-0. However, they won every match 6-0, 6-0. I thought that was strange so I asked a guy that I knew on the losing team what happened. Turns out that the two captains (who were pretty good friends with one another) got together and worked out a side deal. The losing team agreed to (essentially) default all 5 courts.

This was the first year I had played USTA (circa 2004) so I didn't know what to do. I friend of mine's wife worked for the USTA at the time and looked into it. The day before the playoffs they gave us 1st place and ruled what the other team did unsportsmanlike. We went to the playoffs won, and got to the finals of Sectionals.

The day of that playoff, the captain of the team that tried to cheat their way in was screaming and yelling obscenities at the tournament director for reversing everything.

It was glorious.

That's awesome ! I could tell you all kinds of stories about shady captains I've run across.

[AutoXer]

We had a captain for mixed say she didn't have enough players for all 3 lines due to work, family issues, etc and asked my captain if we could play a line the day after the match. It can be pretty casual around here about playing lines early or late. 2 eligible players on her team show up to watch the on time matches. Turns out she had stronger players than the two that spectated that she wanted to play. We beat the stronger line the next night anyway. We all thought that was really shady.

[NTRPolice]

Captains "do what they have to do" all the time with or without players consent. That comes with a leadership role in general. It's easy to say what is "shady" and what is not, but the reality is that sometimes they break rules to improve the overall better picture.

Firstly, I question your "4.5" claim. Unless you had a "touring pro" playing for you I seriously doubt anyone would get DQ'ed at the 4.5 "S" level and certainly not a DQ resulting in match score reversals/defaults. For someone to be DQ'ed as a 4.5 "S" they would have either be literally a touring pro or using an alternate account and/or alias. Even if they guy played D1 singles the year before, he can still self-rate as a 5.0 and appeal down to a 4.5. Even if he gets "DQ'ed" in the first year, it would be a ratings DQ and would not result in all of his/her matches being overturned.

Secondly, captains always "do deals" amongst themselves. Sometimes this is to protect a 5 line default, miscommunication, or be "social". Sometimes they do this to protect their players or themselves.

[bobbything]

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

Captains "do what they have to do" all the time with or without players consent. That comes with a leadership role in general. It's easy to say what is "shady" and what is not, but the reality is that sometimes they break rules to improve the overall better picture.

Firstly, I question your "4.5" claim. Unless you had a "touring pro" playing for you I seriously doubt anyone would get DQ'ed at the 4.5 "S" level and certainly not a DQ resulting in match score reversals/defaults. For someone to be DQ'ed as a 4.5 "S" they would have either be literally a touring pro or using an alternate account and/or alias. Even if they guy played D1 singles the year before, he can still self-rate as a 5.0 and appeal down to a 4.5. Even if he gets "DQ'ed" in the first year, it would be a ratings DQ and would not result in all of his/her matches being overturned.

Secondly, captains always "do deals" amongst themselves. Sometimes this is to protect a 5 line default, miscommunication, or be "social". Sometimes they do this to protect their players or themselves.

Well, to your first point regarding your "touring pro" reference, what you're saying is simply incorrect. Yes, he could self-rate at a 5.0 and appeal it down, but that's not what happened. I'd be happy to post the link to the years and you'll see what happened. We were undefeated, he got DQ'd, and subsequently, one of our 3-2 victories changed to a 2-3 loss. Take a look. You'll see that our team won 3-2, a "DQ" next to his name, and at the bottom of the page, the explanation.

To your second point, I don't know if you're referring to my specific anecdote but I can assure you, they didn't do it to "protect" anyone. They did it to try and get 5 match wins. It was fairly obvious what was going on.

[bobbything]

Sorry, that link above doesn't work (Tennis link is cumbersome). Here is the direct link to the match referenced...

link

[kylebarendrick]

A D1 player could not self rate at 5.0. An appeal to 4.5 would be unlikely to be granted (although I'll admit that stranger things have happened).

There really are players out there that can beat the tar out of top line 4.5s. 3-strikes DQs do result in matches being overturned.

[goober]

Originally Posted by kylebarendrick

A D1 player could not self rate at 5.0. An appeal to 4.5 would be unlikely to be granted (although I'll admit that stranger things have happened).

There really are players out there that can beat the tar out of top line 4.5s. 3-strikes DQs do result in matches being overturned.

I personally know D1 player (still in his mid 20s) that self rated 4.0 in another section. How or why he was able to do this and had no grievance filed, I have no idea. He played one season there and didn't lose any matches. During the year he moved to my section. He played a couple matches in the fall season at 4.0 - doubles and one singles won both of those. He also played mixed with varying results. He basically flew under the radar. At the end of the year he had a 4.0C rating. The top team in the league took him on their roster. Since this team is full of under rated players I took notice and researched his background. I sent weblink to his college record with his team picture to LC and I got back - too bad "C" rated players can't have greivances filed against them. Those are the rules.

[NTRPolice]

Originally Posted by bobbything

Sorry, that link above doesn't work (Tennis link is cumbersome). Here is the direct link to the match referenced...

(edited out link in case you want to delete it later)

The guy played Futures. Of course he cant self-rate at 4.5. "Futures" level for all intents and purposes is "touring pro" level. He was even a rated junior, he did well in college and then tried futures. There are a lot of D1 players who dont even try futures.

He should have played two matches and let the YER come out

Originally Posted by kylebarendrick

A D1 player could not self rate at 5.0. An appeal to 4.5 would be unlikely to be granted (although I'll admit that stranger things have happened).

There really are players out there that can beat the tar out of top line 4.5s. 3-strikes DQs do result in matches being overturned.

A D1 player can most definitely self-rate as 5.0, so long as that player isnt considering tennis as a profession. There are a lot of "5.0's" who played D1 college who go on to become something not related to sports.

In the case of the OP, the player in question was not only a "ranked" junior, but also playing in multiple futures events post college.

His highest level of play is "post college" which to me means "touring pro".



Also, the penalty for a dynamic DQ is not the same in every situation.

Either:

1) The 3rd strike match and all further matches at that level are DQ'ed from play.

2) All previous matches to the 3rd strike match are DQ'ed.

It's not supposed to be all of them.

Also, if the DQ occurs at another level of play besides the ones that earned the DQ, nothing happens. (Guy is a 4.5 playing 5.0, get's 3 wins, DQ'ed out of 4.5, but all wins at 5.0 still count).

*They put this "restriction" in there so that situations like the OP's cant be used as an advantage to a person/team filing a grievance.

[bobbything]

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

The guy played Futures. Of course he cant self-rate at 4.5. "Futures" level for all intents and purposes is "touring pro" level. He was even a rated junior, he did well in college and then tried futures. There are a lot of D1 players who dont even try futures.

He should have played two matches and let the YER come out



A D1 player can most definitely self-rate as 5.0, so long as that player isnt considering tennis as a profession. There are a lot of "5.0's" who played D1 college who go on to become something not related to sports.

In the case of the OP, the player in question was not only a "ranked" junior, but also playing in multiple futures events post college.

His highest level of play is "post college" which to me means "touring pro".

Yeah, I'm not trying to defend the situation. He was too good for the 4.5 level. For all of us it was our first time playing USTA. We would have played 5.0 but I don't think it was available at that time; no teams registered anyway. We really had no idea what we were doing. Him and I are good friends (grew up playing together, juniors, high school), so we just asked him if he wanted to play. He passed the self rating test so we just went with it. The decision was correct to DQ him. Really my original post was to talk about a captain colluding with another to gain wins illegitimately.

Anyway, our guy did play a few futures but he wasn't trying to make a living at it. There are always a few of those that come through our town and anyone can play in them. I played in a few in St. Joseph, MO with him. It was just for fun really. There were a lot of guys who really had no business playing in them (one guy was about 70 years old). But he did win a few matches.

[kylebarendrick]

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

A D1 player can most definitely self-rate as 5.0, so long as that player isnt considering tennis as a profession. There are a lot of "5.0's" who played D1 college who go on to become something not related to sports.

Per the actual usta self-rate guidelines "Div. 1 unranked college team or player" has a minimum rating of 5.5 up to age 30.(http://assets.usta.com/assets/646/US...oc_13_7372.pdf) It doesn't matter what their future profession is. Current "Satellite, Futures, Circuit Players" are minimum 6.5 and for former players minimum 6.0 rating up to age 35.

Not to say that these guidelines are enforced to the degree that they should be, but thems the facts man.

[Rjtennis]

Very shady indeed. The league director made the right call and you were right to point it out to them.

[Jack the Hack]

Originally Posted by NTRPolice

...unless you had a "touring pro" playing for you I seriously doubt anyone would get DQ'ed at the 4.5 "S" level and certainly not a DQ resulting in match score reversals/defaults. For someone to be DQ'ed as a 4.5 "S" they would have either be literally a touring pro or using an alternate account and/or alias...

Here is a real case of a legitimately self rated 4.5 player being disqualified from his match results and having everything for the season reversed:

http://tennislink.usta.com/Leagues/M...mmon/Home.aspx

This person did not play high school or college tennis. He never had a ranking of any kind. He started playing tennis in his mid-twenties, and took lessons a couple times per week. He was 35 when I met him, so he had been playing for about 10 years. His strokes looked like an average 3.5 or 4.0 player (meaning that they weren't technically sound, with flaws in the grip, shoulder turn, and follow through), and he hit a pancake-grip serve with very little pace or spin. If you saw him warming up, you'd never think he was a good player. However, in my opinion, he had world class level athletic ability and talent for tennis. His game consisted of running practically every ball down, and slice/shovelling the ball back over the net. He also had exceptional hands, and was good at blocking serves back into play, or knocking away volleys and overheads if he was drawn into the net. I believe that if he had started playing when he was 6 years old, had good coaching and parents with money, he would have been on the pro tour... but that hadn't been the case, so he was legitimately eligible to self-rate at practically anything he wanted.

He actually started out at 4.0, but was disqualified at that level due to a grievance after his first match. The USTA could not find any reason in his playing background to merit a disqualification, but his opponent felt embarrassed by the 6-0, 6-0 loss and Charlie told the USTA he'd rather play at a higher level. Therefore, they placed him on a local 4.5 team instead that had been looking for players to fill our their roster (they were not a playoff contender - just a group of 4.5 hackers). However, as you can see, he only played 3 matches, but lost just 5 games total, and was dynamically DQ'ed up to 5.0.

His case is an outlier for a couple reasons:

• He is one of only three people that I have met that started tennis late in life, but was still able to reach the 5.0 level within 10 years, after the age of 35. The other two people had extensive athletic backgrounds in other sports. Charlie played no other sports (that I know of) before picking up a racquet on his own.
• He is the only player I've ever seen get disqualified from 4.5 in just three matches - all strikes! (And I've seen former D1, D2, and high school state champions cheat the system, sandbag at 4.5, and skate through seasons undefeated... and still not get bumped.)

It's too bad because Charlie hasn't played in the USTA League since then, and now he only hits against the backboard or against a teaching pro when he takes a lesson. His talent sits on the sidelines, and I would have loved to see what he could have done against the real sandbaggers!

[goober]

Originally Posted by Jack the Hack

Here is a real case of a legitimately self rated 4.5 player being disqualified from his match results and having everything for the season reversed:

http://tennislink.usta.com/Leagues/M...mmon/Home.aspx

This person did not play high school or college tennis. He never had a ranking of any kind. He started playing tennis in his mid-twenties, and took lessons a couple times per week. He was 35 when I met him, so he had been playing for about 10 years. His strokes looked like an average 3.5 or 4.0 player (meaning that they weren't technically sound, with flaws in the grip, shoulder turn, and follow through), and he hit a pancake-grip serve with very little pace or spin. If you saw him warming up, you'd never think he was a good player. However, in my opinion, he had world class level athletic ability and talent for tennis. His game consisted of running practically every ball down, and slice/shovelling the ball back over the net. He also had exceptional hands, and was good at blocking serves back into play, or knocking away volleys and overheads if he was drawn into the net. I believe that if he had started playing when he was 6 years old, had good coaching and parents with money, he would have been on the pro tour... but that hadn't been the case, so he was legitimately eligible to self-rate at practically anything he wanted.

He actually started out at 4.0, but was disqualified at that level due to a grievance after his first match. The USTA could not find any reason in his playing background to merit a disqualification, but his opponent felt embarrassed by the 6-0, 6-0 loss and Charlie told the USTA he'd rather play at a higher level. Therefore, they placed him on a local 4.5 team instead that had been looking for players to fill our their roster (they were not a playoff contender - just a group of 4.5 hackers). However, as you can see, he only played 3 matches, but lost just 5 games total, and was dynamically DQ'ed up to 5.0.

His case is an outlier for a couple reasons:

• He is one of only three people that I have met that started tennis late in life, but was still able to reach the 5.0 level within 10 years, after the age of 35. The other two people had extensive athletic backgrounds in other sports. Charlie played no other sports (that I know of) before picking up a racquet on his own.
• He is the only player I've ever seen get disqualified from 4.5 in just three matches - all strikes! (And I've seen former D1, D2, and high school state champions cheat the system, sandbag at 4.5, and skate through seasons undefeated... and still not get bumped.)

It's too bad because Charlie hasn't played in the USTA League since then, and now he only hits against the backboard or against a teaching pro when he takes a lesson. His talent sits on the sidelines, and I would have loved to see what he could have done against the real sandbaggers!

That guy is pretty impressive. I know one of the players he beat in an age group tournament and his a legit solid 5.0. Why doesn't he just skip league and play open/age group tourneys? It looks like he had good competition there,.

[NTRPolice]

As others have pointed out, I was a bit wrong about my self-rate theory. I think the correct determination of how this happened was a combination of three things:

1) By the book improper self-rate, according to the guidelines.
2) He beat the wrong players, the wrong ways.
3) Those players filed a complaint.

That's really the only way I can see this being so bad. It really does seem like they threw the book at him. I almost want to say that this was a little bit unfortunate for him.

Originally Posted by Jack the Hack

Here is a real case of a legitimately self rated 4.5 player being disqualified from his match results and having everything for the season reversed:

http://tennislink.usta.com/Leagues/M...mmon/Home.aspx

This person did not play high school or college tennis. He never had a ranking of any kind. He started playing tennis in his mid-twenties, and took lessons a couple times per week. He was 35 when I met him, so he had been playing for about 10 years. His strokes looked like an average 3.5 or 4.0 player (meaning that they weren't technically sound, with flaws in the grip, shoulder turn, and follow through), and he hit a pancake-grip serve with very little pace or spin. If you saw him warming up, you'd never think he was a good player. However, in my opinion, he had world class level athletic ability and talent for tennis. His game consisted of running practically every ball down, and slice/shovelling the ball back over the net. He also had exceptional hands, and was good at blocking serves back into play, or knocking away volleys and overheads if he was drawn into the net. I believe that if he had started playing when he was 6 years old, had good coaching and parents with money, he would have been on the pro tour... but that hadn't been the case, so he was legitimately eligible to self-rate at practically anything he wanted.

He actually started out at 4.0, but was disqualified at that level due to a grievance after his first match. The USTA could not find any reason in his playing background to merit a disqualification, but his opponent felt embarrassed by the 6-0, 6-0 loss and Charlie told the USTA he'd rather play at a higher level. Therefore, they placed him on a local 4.5 team instead that had been looking for players to fill our their roster (they were not a playoff contender - just a group of 4.5 hackers). However, as you can see, he only played 3 matches, but lost just 5 games total, and was dynamically DQ'ed up to 5.0.

His case is an outlier for a couple reasons:

• He is one of only three people that I have met that started tennis late in life, but was still able to reach the 5.0 level within 10 years, after the age of 35. The other two people had extensive athletic backgrounds in other sports. Charlie played no other sports (that I know of) before picking up a racquet on his own.
• He is the only player I've ever seen get disqualified from 4.5 in just three matches - all strikes! (And I've seen former D1, D2, and high school state champions cheat the system, sandbag at 4.5, and skate through seasons undefeated... and still not get bumped.)

It's too bad because Charlie hasn't played in the USTA League since then, and now he only hits against the backboard or against a teaching pro when he takes a lesson. His talent sits on the sidelines, and I would have loved to see what he could have done against the real sandbaggers!

In some ways this sounds a little like me (the rating side, not the style side). I have goals of being a 4.5 by the time I turn 35 and ive been blazing my way through the lower ranks. I even played up to 3.5 as a 3.0 just to expedite the process because it was getting ridiculous.

My "self-rate" was air tight, much like his.

I have no fears of being DQ'ed. I hope my lack of fear isnt unrealistic.