Is Nadal-Djokovic the greatest rivalry in world history?

[World Beater]

Originally Posted by Mustard

And? Do you realise that 11 of Djokovic's 14 wins over Nadal were on hardcourts? And before 2011, that was 7 out of 7 on hardcourts.



I need to see Nadal in action first. If he's playing well on the clay, then certainly.



On what do you base these assumptions?



False. Nadal won 3 of their 4 matches in 2012.

Novak has an advantage on hardcourts, which is the majority of the circuit. Since his dominant year in 2011 he has been 2-3 on clay against nadal, and convincingly beat nadal at wimbledon in 2011. He will also have the advantage in the fall season where nadal has been woeful.

I dont why you keep bringing up his record on clay against novak on clay in 2012, since the frame of reference is 2011 when djokovic became the best player in the world. Before that certainly nadal was better than the still maturing novak djokovic.

I base my assumptions on reasoning. It is highly unlikely that nadal will return to his best form on clay so soon, and he will need close to it to beat post 2011 djokovic.

Is it possible for nadal to come out and dominate on clay like he always does? Yes, but unlikely after such a long layoff. He is not going to be match tough or match sharp by the time the french rolls around to beat novak, as long as nole is in the draw.

Nadal has not forgotten to play tennis, but he will need time to gain those fine margins that allow him to win close matches.

Djokovic has regained #1 since the time nadal left the game. Nadal in contrast has been fishing and cycling.

You tell me who has the better outlook. LOL.

I would say that nadal will probably win rg in 2014 but 2013 will be too early.

Djokovic will continue to dominate nadal since 2011 maintaining the edge on hardcourts, cutting into nadal on clay and beating him on most other surfaces including grass should they meet.

[tennisMVP]

"World Beater", Djokovic didn't maintain his edge on hardcourts in 2012. The Australian Open final....? Really? If that's an edge its the most unimpressive edge in history

And in 2011 Djokovic beat Nadal in straight sets twice. Which surface? Both were on clay.

[Mike Sams]

Originally Posted by tennisMVP

"World Beater", Djokovic didn't maintain his edge on hardcourts in 2012. The Australian Open final....? Really? If that's an edge its the most unimpressive edge in history

Who won the match?

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by World Beater

Novak has an advantage on hardcourts, which is the majority of the circuit. Since his dominant year in 2011 he has been 2-3 on clay against nadal, and convincingly beat nadal at wimbledon in 2011. He will also have the advantage in the fall season where nadal has been woeful.

2011 is gone, my friend. Heck, even 2012 is over as far as tennis is concerned. The present situation of the Nadal vs. Djokovic rivalry is considerably different compared to this time a year ago. This time last year, Nadal had lost 6 finals in a row to Djokovic on all 3 surfaces, including in 2 major finals. At the present time, Nadal is on a 3-match winning streak against Djokovic, having convincingly strengthened his position as the king of clay, back to his old dominant self.

Originally Posted by World Beater

I dont why you keep bringing up his record on clay against novak on clay in 2012, since the frame of reference is 2011 when djokovic became the best player in the world. Before that certainly nadal was better than the still maturing novak djokovic.

LOL. Djokovic has almost always been ahead of Nadal on hardcourts in their head-to-head, even before 2011. Before 2011, Nadal would always win both the closest, and the most important, matches, on all surfaces, while Djokovic's wins would always be on hardcourts in 2 straight sets. 2011 saw Djokovic change the dynamics of the rivalry, to the point where he was out-Nadalling Nadal on the tennis court. In 2012, though, it changed again.

I firmly believe that Nadal got rid of his demons during the 2012 Australian Open final, strangely enough, despite the loss. He looked content after the match, rather than unsettled. It was obviously bad to lose after leading 4-2 in the fifth set, but just getting into that position had restored Nadal's confidence that he could beat Djokovic in the future.

Djokovic's grandfather passing away may have had some hand in the result of the 2012 Monte Carlo final, but it was still an extra boost of confidence for Nadal when he won the title for the 8th year in a row. The 2012 Rome final was a close match, yet Nadal won it in straight sets, avenging the previous year's loss. And the 2012 French Open final, with so much at stake, saw Nadal triumph.

Originally Posted by World Beater

I base my assumptions on reasoning. It is highly unlikely that nadal will return to his best form on clay so soon, and he will need close to it to beat post 2011 djokovic.

We'll see. We need to see Nadal in action in 2013 to have a better idea on that.

Originally Posted by World Beater

Is it possible for nadal to come out and dominate on clay like he always does? Yes, but unlikely after such a long layoff. He is not going to be match tough or match sharp by the time the french rolls around to beat novak, as long as nole is in the draw.

The European clay period is more than 4 months away yet and the French Open is 6 months away. We've got many tournaments before then. Nadal will probably play the Abu Dhabi exhibition tournament, Doha, the Australian Open, Indian Wells and Miami before he gets on the clay.

Originally Posted by World Beater

Nadal has not forgotten to play tennis, but he will need time to gain those fine margins that allow him to win close matches.

Nadal hits with a load of topspin, so has a high margin for error. That's why he's so good, he can be powerful and aggressive, while at the same time, he has a high margin for error so that even on a bad playing day, he usually does well.

Originally Posted by World Beater

Djokovic has regained #1 since the time nadal left the game. Nadal in contrast has been fishing and cycling.

You tell me who has the better outlook. LOL.

It might have done Nadal good to have had many months away from tennis. If Nadal still has the physicality and the desire for success, the break will have done him brilliantly.

[cc0509]

Originally Posted by Mustard

2011 is gone, my friend. Heck, even 2012 is over as far as tennis is concerned. The present situation of the Nadal vs. Djokovic rivalry is considerably different compared to this time a year ago. This time last year, Nadal had lost 6 finals in a row to Djokovic on all 3 surfaces, including in 2 major finals. At the present time, Nadal is on a 3-match winning streak against Djokovic, having convincingly strengthened his position as the king of clay, back to his old dominant self.
.

You keep repeating this same thing over and over, but Nadal has not yet defeated Djokovic off clay since all of those 2011 beatings. His defeats against Djokovic on clay tell us nothing about his future matches off clay. It remains to be seen if the current Nadal can defeat Djokovic in a slam off clay.

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by cc0509

You keep repeating this same thing over and over, but Nadal has not yet defeated Djokovic off clay since all of those 2011 beatings.

You say that like it's a big thing, when Djokovic has only beaten Nadal in 3 out of 17 matches off of hardcourts. Even on hardcourts, Nadal has registered some big wins over Djokovic.

Originally Posted by cc0509

His defeats against Djokovic on clay tell us nothing about his future matches off clay. It remains to be seen if the current Nadal can defeat Djokovic in a slam off clay.

Why are you so certain that Djokovic can beat Nadal in a major off clay? Based on 2011? Djokovic may have finished 2012 as a world number 1, and deservedly so, but I never got the feeling that he was back to his 2011 self towards the end of the year, just that he was the best player in a year where all the top guys did some good.

[cc0509]

Originally Posted by Mustard

You say that like it's a big thing, when Djokovic has only beaten Nadal in 3 out of 17 matches off of hardcourts. Even on hardcourts, Nadal has registered some big wins over Djokovic.



Why are you so certain that Djokovic can beat Nadal in a major off clay? Based on 2011? Djokovic may have finished 2012 as a world number 1, and deservedly so, but I never got the feeling that he was back to his 2011 self towards the end of the year, just that he was the best player in a year where all the top guys did some good.

I am not certain but until Nadal does actually beat Djokovic in an off clay slam again, Djokovic is the favorite.

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by cc0509

I am not certain but until Nadal does actually beat Djokovic in an off clay slam again, Djokovic is the favorite.

At the Australian Open, Djokovic would be the favourite, seeing as he's world number 1, defending champion etc. while Nadal has spent half a year out of the sport. But who knows how it will look in a year's time.

[jokinla]

I thought it was Nadal-Rosol... oh wait, Nads has to win to make it a rivalry.

[6-1 6-3 6-0]

Originally Posted by jokinla

I thought it was Nadal-Rosol... oh wait, Nads has to win to make it a rivalry.

Yep, just like the Federer-Roddick 'rivalry'.

Oh wait, it's not a rivalry at all, since Nadal and Rosol have only met once. That's like saying Federer-Sampras is a rivalry.

[Crisstti]

Originally Posted by Colin

I think it's going to be harder to come back than the last times and that may cause Rafa to lose interest in the sport, especially if he's lower-ranked and runs into Djokovic in the semis or even quarters if Ferrer takes the fourth spot. He's going to have a hard time winning hard-court matches against Nole and Andy and likely even Fed and Ferrer. His best hope is he can find his form for clay. If he hasn't go the confidence, it could be a disaster and I could see him retiring without beating Djokovic again. If he has a great clay and grass season, things could turn around. Hard to say till we see him in action.

I think it will depend basically on how he's physically. He was not fine when he came back in 2009 and I do wonder if he would have ended up losing interest had things stayed like that.

[World Beater]

Originally Posted by Mustard

2011 is gone, my friend. Heck, even 2012 is over as far as tennis is concerned. The present situation of the Nadal vs. Djokovic rivalry is considerably different compared to this time a year ago. This time last year, Nadal had lost 6 finals in a row to Djokovic on all 3 surfaces, including in 2 major finals. At the present time, Nadal is on a 3-match winning streak against Djokovic, having convincingly strengthened his position as the king of clay, back to his old dominant self.
.

I would agree with you except that Nadal's momentum had been severely curtailed. Nadal thrives off of winning and playing matches in succession. He had won RG and struck back against novak on clay.

But all of that was stopped at wimbledon and since then nadal has only gone down, and novak is back to #1.

Whatever momentum nadal had is gone, and djokovic - nadal is definitely in djokovic's camp. The burden is on nadal to prove he can get back to the top after such a long layoff - nadal is a great player but he is not superman.

Novak in contrast finished 2012 in a grand way beating one of the best masters players of all time in federer.

Originally Posted by Mustard

LOL. Djokovic has almost always been ahead of Nadal on hardcourts in their head-to-head, even before 2011. Before 2011, Nadal would always win both the closest, and the most important, matches, on all surfaces, while Djokovic's wins would always be on hardcourts in 2 straight sets. 2011 saw Djokovic change the dynamics of the rivalry, to the point where he was out-Nadalling Nadal on the tennis court. In 2012, though, it changed again.

I firmly believe that Nadal got rid of his demons during the 2012 Australian Open final, strangely enough, despite the loss. He looked content after the match, rather than unsettled. It was obviously bad to lose after leading 4-2 in the fifth set, but just getting into that position had restored Nadal's confidence that he could beat Djokovic in the future.

Djokovic's grandfather passing away may have had some hand in the result of the 2012 Monte Carlo final, but it was still an extra boost of confidence for Nadal when he won the title for the 8th year in a row. The 2012 Rome final was a close match, yet Nadal won it in straight sets, avenging the previous year's loss. And the 2012 French Open final, with so much at stake, saw Nadal triumph.

.

I do not agree that rivalry changed that much against novak in 2012. Nadal won 3 matches on clay, a surface where he is supposed to beat novak and everyone else. Nadal just "held serve".

Even though djokovic won in 2011, nadal was always going to be the favorite considering his achievements on clay.

Before 2011, even though novak held the edge against nadal on hardcourts, nadal was still getting him back on hardcourts in big matches - slams.

That has pretty much changed since 2011, and 2012 did not do anything to turn back that tide.

Originally Posted by Mustard

The European clay period is more than 4 months away yet and the French Open is 6 months away. We've got many tournaments before then. Nadal will probably play the Abu Dhabi exhibition tournament, Doha, the Australian Open, Indian Wells and Miami before he gets on the clay.



Nadal hits with a load of topspin, so has a high margin for error. That's why he's so good, he can be powerful and aggressive, while at the same time, he has a high margin for error so that even on a bad playing day, he usually does well.



It might have done Nadal good to have had many months away from tennis. If Nadal still has the physicality and the desire for success, the break will have done him brilliantly.

The tour is always improving. Murray will be better next year after his success in 2012. Djokovic will have more confidence after finishing 2011 strong. I expect del potro to get better as well.

Nadal on the other hand has to go back to the drawing board. He has health issues to worry about and fitness. Those other guys are working on their games and playing competetive matches while nadal was fishing and cycling.

Even if we assume that nadal had gotten back even with djokovic in 2012, he has definitely lost whatever ground he had made up. All the top contenders have a head start on him.

Lets see what happens.