Wrist snap question - Page 3

sureshs · 12-01-2012, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by user92626

It cannot be the effect of pronation.To me pronation would be like turning a car's steering wheel. You can do that without changing the wrist angle.

The car wheel is the support. Before my previous post, I tried to pronate the lower arm while not changing the wrist angle from the laid back position, and it was very awkward. The pronation naturally induces the pivoting action of the wrist as LeeD says.

sureshs · 12-01-2012, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toly

Djokovic hits pure flat FH without pronation. He is next to the net and can afford hitting the ball with no pronation at all.

Here is original video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M2JvLXGiWU&feature=plcp

I don't think we are discussing "next to net" situations.

bkpr · 12-01-2012, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

The wrist does flex yes but pictures cannot tell you if it was intentional or not.

Exactly. My original question was not about whether the wrist moves at all in relation to the forearm, but whether it's supposed to be a conscious movement and forced by the player.

I had a hit tonight for an hour or so and I can't hit any groundie without my wrist ending up in a different position after contact than before (I play with a slightly west-shifted eastern — knuckle on the ridge, between eastern and semi-western bevels). But it sure feels wrong to deliberately move my wrist trying to add a little more racquet head speed. After a few shots I went back to hitting with the most comfortable feel. (Incidentally I won 6-3 against a guy I've never beaten

)

This thread has expanded more than I expected (see Mum, I have friends!) but I'm learning things so it's good.

LeeD · 12-01-2012, 07:38 PM

Wrist moves because forearm is somewhat relaxed, and you just hit a tennis ball, now rolling over your followthru, and gravity/inertia takes effect.
You allow the wrist to move, you do not force it.

Cheetah · 12-01-2012, 07:44 PM

Hit the ball with your body, not with your arm. Think of it that way. Most recs hit with their arm therefore they intentionally snap the wrist because they can get more power that way. If you hit with the body then it's a different story altogether. Table tennis is another story.

SystemicAnomaly · 12-01-2012, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by user92626

Unlike you guys, I think Djokovic knows what he's talking about. It's just that others might be too stupid to understand.

Kinda like if a Zen master told you a truth, would you know? The gap is like that between DJ and us mortals.

As to why I think Djo is correct about wrist snapping. The action is correct as long as you don't injure yourself and it adds power. If you train everyday to reach your best potentials, wouldn't you want to extract every ounce of power out of your mechanics? The wrist is one of the moving joints so it sure can help with acceleration .

I disagree. Novak is not a coach and he certainly is not an expert in biomechanics. He is parroting what many of his coaches told him 15-20 years ago. We are not denying that that wrist actions occur on the serve and can occur on other strokes. The question is, "does this constitute wrist snap?".

Novak may be a Jedi or Zen master when it comes to execution of strokes but this does not mean that his explanation of his own strokes is totally accurate.

bkpr · 12-01-2012, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeeD

You allow the wrist to move, you do not force it.

Yoda-like

ace_pace · 12-01-2012, 08:04 PM

Well I never said they rolled their wrist manually, I was more or less describing the motion

. Really you should not be manually using the wrist at all, it happens as a result of actions.

SystemicAnomaly · 12-01-2012, 08:14 PM

toly, your images show us that there can be wrist actions involved in strokes other than the serve. We are not denying that. However, your images do not prove that the terminology, wrist snap, is an accurate description of the actions involved. The primary problem with the terminology is that it is often misleading.

Have you done any actual coaching? While some players have produced the desired result when a coach tells them to snap the wrist, many others perform wrist actions that are counterproductive, stressful or even dangerous to the wrist. If one uses this questionable terminology, great care should be taken to demonstrate the desired actions. Further care should be taken to make certain that exaggerated wrist flexions (well past neutral) occur that can harm the stroke or the wrist.

The real problem here is that a student of the game may perform correct actions when told to snap the wrist but then they turn around and tell others to snap the wrist without proper demonstration and correction.

boramiNYC · 12-01-2012, 08:32 PM

I understand the possibility of misunderstanding by using the term, wrist snap, but there is concern for possibility of tensing up the wrist when students hear, do not use your wrist wrist must be passive and so forth. this has been the case for very long time in teaching E fh where students are told to have firm wrist, which had been fine for old time when topspin wasn't as important as come in and volley off. for SW fh instruction wrist manipulation is a minor issue but to teach a high level E fh, fine wrist control ability is critical in being able to handle todays topspin game. we need better way to teach students E fh effectively and clearly if we are going to teach it at all. talking about wrist movements and control shouldn't be a taboo. that's my take.

toly · 12-01-2012, 10:40 PM

Let’s compare two different forehands.

Fish hits WW FH and Djokovic strikes Hard TS FH. Both employ pronation and wrist ulnar deviation. Image #3 shows that Fish racquet is vertical and parallel to his chest, that’s why this type of FH is called WW FH, but Djokovic racquet is closed (corresponding image #3) and perpendicular to his chest. Djokovic FH has absolutely nothing to do with WW FH. This is one of the ways to play winners.

What causes so big difference in follow through? The answer is that Fish applies passive wrist actions, but Djokovic uses actively wrist ulnar deviation. The same does Hantuchova, post 37, and this explains why the skinny super model still is very successful in WTA.

Cheetah · 12-01-2012, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toly

Let’s compare two different forehands.

Fish hits WW FH and Djokovic strikes Hard TS FH. Both employ pronation and wrist ulnar deviation. Image #3 shows that Fish racquet is vertical and parallel to his chest, that’s why this type of FH is called WW FH, but Djokovic racquet is closed (corresponding image #3) and perpendicular to his chest. Djokovic FH has absolutely nothing to do with WW FH. This is the way to play winners.

What causes so big difference in follow through? The answer is that Fish applies passive wrist actions, but Djokovic uses actively wrist ulnar deviation. The same does Hantuchova, post 37, and this explains why the skinny super model still very successful in WTA.

Djokovic's fh there is also ww.
Djokovic doesn't use active ulnar deviation.

user92626 · 12-01-2012, 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

I disagree. Novak is not a coach and he certainly is not an expert in biomechanics. He is parroting what many of his coaches told him 15-20 years ago. We are not denying that that wrist actions occur on the serve and can occur on other strokes. The question is, "does this constitute wrist snap?".

Novak may be a Jedi or Zen master when it comes to execution of strokes but this does not mean that his explanation of his own strokes is totally accurate.

And who in here is an expert in biomechanics?

I rather believe Djo than LeeD, who asserts that Djok "doesn't know what he's talking about". Which has a higher probability of happening here: Djo not knowing the tennis stroke he's describing or guys like LeeD knowing what the pinnacle of tennis is like?

10sLifer · 12-01-2012, 11:50 PM

Oh so now where not all about the wrist snap!? I'll make a note. Still see "ulnar deviation" makes us feel smart though, thats good.

toly · 12-02-2012, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Djokovic's fh there is also ww.

If racquet face is horizontal, how can it be WW FH? The wiper always should be parallel to the windshield (player’s chest) not perpendicular to it.

This is typical WW FH.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Djokovic doesn't use active ulnar deviation.

I think this is pure speculation and you definitely cannot proof that, can you?

toly · 12-02-2012, 08:06 AM

Monfils hits Hard TS FH with extreme pronation and wrist ulnar deviation.

This is his favorite FH. In picture 4 the racquet is completely closed. This can occur if and only if the wrist is active!!!

Cheetah · 12-02-2012, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toly

Monfils hits Hard TS FH with extreme pronation and wrist ulnar deviation.

This is his favorite FH. In picture 4 the racquet is completely closed. This can occur if and only if the wrist is active!!!

Before I continue I want to make sure I understand what you are saying.
By 'active' you mean the opposite of 'passive' right?

dominikk1985 · 12-02-2012, 10:25 AM

I read that the closing is a passive effect of the racket face because of the upward brush.

WildVolley · 12-02-2012, 12:27 PM

I'm not sure that the active/passive debate makes a lot of sense.

First, video has convinced me that I don't necessarily know what I'm doing in a high level of detail. I assume the same holds for a lot of the pros.

Second, I'd guess that the forearm muscles that control wrist movement are firing off when all of us play, just to hold onto the racket and to keep the wrist from collapsing back too much against the momentum of the racket and the pulling forward of the arm by much stronger muscles in the body.

As far as the use of the wrist on the serve, I'm not a fan of the term wrist-snap. However, "wrist-snap" is taught to high level players as I've personally witnessed. I've seen, for example, Raonic's coach showing him wrist snap in practice. Raonic's serve, imo, doesn't really use much wrist snap, but I'm sure the wrist (meaning forearm muscles) are very active just prior and at contact, just to hold onto the racket if nothing else.

It seems to me that the best servers, are actually slowing the upper arm just prior to contact and this is driving a great amount of the force into internal shoulder rotation and pronation and forearm strength is necessary to deliver this power to the ball.

LeeD · 12-02-2012, 12:56 PM

How do we crack the whip?
We slow down the foreward momentum of the forearm and hand, to allow the head of the whip to come thru.

12-01-2012, 07:44 PM	#45
Cheetah Hall Of Fame Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: San Diego Posts: 2,243	Hit the ball with your body, not with your arm. Think of it that way. Most recs hit with their arm therefore they intentionally snap the wrist because they can get more power that way. If you hit with the body then it's a different story altogether. Table tennis is another story. __________________ Yonex VCore 100s - SW 351 6pts HL Tour Bite / N.VY 16 @ 51lbs

12-01-2012, 08:14 PM	#49
SystemicAnomaly Legend Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Stuck in the Matrix somewhere in Santa Clara CA Posts: 7,745	toly, your images show us that there can be wrist actions involved in strokes other than the serve. We are not denying that. However, your images do not prove that the terminology, wrist snap, is an accurate description of the actions involved. The primary problem with the terminology is that it is often misleading. Have you done any actual coaching? While some players have produced the desired result when a coach tells them to snap the wrist, many others perform wrist actions that are counterproductive, stressful or even dangerous to the wrist. If one uses this questionable terminology, great care should be taken to demonstrate the desired actions. Further care should be taken to make certain that exaggerated wrist flexions (well past neutral) occur that can harm the stroke or the wrist. The real problem here is that a student of the game may perform correct actions when told to snap the wrist but then they turn around and tell others to snap the wrist without proper demonstration and correction. __________________ . Every tool is a weapon -- if you hold it right. (~Ani DiFranco)

12-01-2012, 10:40 PM	#51
toly Professional Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,199	Let’s compare two different forehands. Fish hits WW FH and Djokovic strikes Hard TS FH. Both employ pronation and wrist ulnar deviation. Image #3 shows that Fish racquet is vertical and parallel to his chest, that’s why this type of FH is called WW FH, but Djokovic racquet is closed (corresponding image #3) and perpendicular to his chest. Djokovic FH has absolutely nothing to do with WW FH. This is one of the ways to play winners. What causes so big difference in follow through? The answer is that Fish applies passive wrist actions, but Djokovic uses actively wrist ulnar deviation. The same does Hantuchova, post 37, and this explains why the skinny super model still is very successful in WTA. __________________ Anatoly Antipin - one of the most delicate tennis players in the world. Last edited by toly : 12-01-2012 at 11:10 PM.

12-01-2012, 11:50 PM	#54
10sLifer New User Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 86	Oh so now where not all about the wrist snap!? I'll make a note. Still see "ulnar deviation" makes us feel smart though, thats good. __________________ "I let my players loosen up after they win nationals" - Vic Braden Last edited by 10sLifer : 12-01-2012 at 11:55 PM.

12-02-2012, 08:06 AM	#56
toly Professional Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1,199	Monfils hits Hard TS FH with extreme pronation and wrist ulnar deviation. This is his favorite FH. In picture 4 the racquet is completely closed. This can occur if and only if the wrist is active!!! __________________ Anatoly Antipin - one of the most delicate tennis players in the world. Last edited by toly : 12-02-2012 at 08:33 AM.