Do you overrule your doubles partner when he makes a bad call?

[fuzz nation]

Originally Posted by treblings

thanks for answering. sometimes a ball is clearly out and yet your opponent/s will still question your call and ask to see a mark.
in cases like that, it sometimes happens that you can´t show the mark because you´ve taken your eyes off it, not expecting any controversy

This caught my attention because of what's potentially going on in a match when opponents keep questioning line calls. This past fall, I had to remember to talk with the high school team I help coach and remind them to keep their heads in case this constant second-guessing happens in a match. Some opponents will want occasional confirmation, but others will overdo it to make us more tentative about calling close balls "out". Especially with the kids, that can be a very effective (though unsporting) head game.

The issue with identifying a mark on the court is also a bit of an afterthought in an unofficiated match. Even when playing on clay courts where the ball marks are typically quite visible, players still need to make a prompt "out" call when the ball bounces, just like with any other surface. Otherwise opponents would be constantly hung up on confirming ball marks instead of abiding by their opponent's calls and maintaining a steady pace of play.

Opponents can't come over to your side of the net to examine the marks from their own shots and you're not obligated to constantly identify them. Everyone's responsibility is simply to make prompt and accurate calls. If you spot a mark that indicates that you made a bad call (called an "in" ball "out"), just apologize, give the point to your opponent(s), and carry on.

[rk_sports]

I think this was discussed in the League section...

When I played the first match in 4.0 league (having moved from 3.5), I was paired with a veteran 4.0 player and the first thing he told me was..
"Do NOT overrule me even if you think the call is different" .. I was SHOCKED

I stick to a simple rule... whoever is closer (now reading SystemicAnomaly's post makes me wonder about this) will make the call, overrule if it's clear miss by my partner irrespective of the match situation and be ready to show the mark.

So when I play a league match especially with a new partner, I make sure to discuss this before match start.

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ Some players value team solidarity over fairness. With many players it is often a matter of pride or "saving face". If one players makes a call, it is up to their partner to support their call so that they are not embarrassed or "lose face". With many players, this concept of "saving face" is a strong cultural imperative. In most American and many Euro cultures, the concept of sportstsmanship or "fair play" is a strong moral imperative -- greater than the idea of "saving face".

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[5263]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

^ Some players value team solidarity over fairness. With many players it is often a matter of pride or "saving face". If one players makes a call, it is up to their partner to support their call so that they are not embarrassed or "lose face". With many players, this concept of "saving face" is a strong cultural imperative. In most American and many Euro cultures, the concept of sportstsmanship or "fair play" is a strong moral imperative -- greater than the idea of "saving face".

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I think this is the reason some recommend the correction coming after a huddle with your partner to discuss and give him the chance to correct himself.

[rk_sports]

Originally Posted by 5263

I think this is the reason some recommend the correction coming after a huddle with your partner to discuss and give him the chance to correct himself.

hmm... the moment you approach your partner to discuss the call would mean that there is a disagreement between you and your partner and that would mean the loss of point by default right?

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by rk_sports

hmm... the moment you approach your partner to discuss the call would mean that there is a disagreement between you and your partner and that would mean the loss of point by default right?

Not necessarily. If you didn't see it land, it's acceptable to ask your partner if he/she is sure of the call. Remember, you don't have to agree. You just cant disagree, and you can't both be unsure.

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ Well stated.



Domo arigato, Mr.Roboto!
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[5263]

Originally Posted by rk_sports

hmm... the moment you approach your partner to discuss the call would mean that there is a disagreement between you and your partner and that would mean the loss of point by default right?

well, the situation is your partner just called it out, but you saw it clearly good.

As you go back to get position, you get together to talk...just like setting a plan
to poach or something.
I say, "Hey, I saw that one out and wanted to give you the chance to correct it".
My experience has been the partner will just look at them and go, "sorry, my
partner saw it good, so your point" or something like that. They have also always
thanked me too and confirmed they felt good about how we did it at our change over.
Other team usually compliments us too. Pretty good all around imo and experience.

So actually the moment we had the disagreement was at his out call BEFORE we
talked and the talking could have been about anything, BUT
the call will be corrected no matter what he says. I'm just giving him the chance to
do it and I think that saves face some too.

[user92626]

Originally Posted by woodrow1029

Not necessarily. If you didn't see it land, it's acceptable to ask your partner if he/she is sure of the call. Remember, you don't have to agree. You just cant disagree, and you can't both be unsure.

None of these rules matters to those who willfully cheat.

The bottom line is this is an honor system and only works if people go by their honors. Agreement, disagreement, second guessing partner is all moot point because people, cheaters will learn quickly and do things that favor them.

[woodrow1029]

Originally Posted by user92626

None of these rules matters to those who willfully cheat.

The bottom line is this is an honor system and only works if people go by their honors. Agreement, disagreement, second guessing partner is all moot point because people, cheaters will learn quickly and do things that favor them.

It does matter to the post I quoted.

[mntlblok]

I really like 5263's ideas on this - especially the part about explaining to the opponents that the two of you saw it "differently". Excellent. Leaves open the possibility that *either* of you might have been wrong, *and*, still leaves open the possibility that one of yer opponents may have *also* seen it clearly out and would then award the point to you.

I'm just glad I don't have to play on hard courts very often, especially against the younguns that it so damn hard. I hate having to call "likely" out balls good, but I won't cheat - and *do* understand that if I don't know with 100% certainty, then it's "in". Fortunately, at least with new balls, on the hard courts where I'm occasionally forced to play, the fuzz will generally leave a mark with which I can make the "out" call.

As for playing on clay, it strikes me as just common courtesy that I should circle the mark for any and all close calls that I or my partner make. For a first serve, I'll circle it after the point is over (unless it's questioned). There are certainly times when a mark can't be found, but for the vast majority of balls - *if* one is inclined to make only accurate calls - it is *not* hard to find the mark.

If a partner gets upset when I've over-ruled his call and circled the "in" mark, then that's just fine. I now know that he's not someone with whom I have further interest in playing tennis - or even being around. Living by the "silver rule" works out just fine with me.

I play "old man" age group tennis tournaments and it's well known who the cheaters are, and officials are often called out even before the match starts. That must feel great to the cheaters. Most tend to stop showing up. On the other hand, those of us with a reputation for fairness tend to not have to worry about bad calls coming from the other side.

[5263]

Originally Posted by mntlblok

I really like 5263's ideas on this - especially the part about explaining to the opponents that the two of you saw it "differently". Excellent. Leaves open the possibility that *either* of you might have been wrong, *and*, still leaves open the possibility that one of yer opponents may have *also* seen it clearly out and would then award the point to you.

I play "old man" age group tennis tournaments and it's well known who the cheaters are, and officials are often called out even before the match starts. That must feel great to the cheaters. Most tend to stop showing up. On the other hand, those of us with a reputation for fairness tend to not have to worry about bad calls coming from the other side.

I bet it's a fun group to play with..the regulars, the fair ones who don't have a reason not
to show up

Thanks for the comments about my ideas, but they aren't really mine. Can't remember
where, but read where someone suggested it was best to give your partner a chance to
correct his call thru a little private pow-wow after the call. It seemed like a good idea and
has worked very well for me.

[mntlblok]

Originally Posted by 5263

I bet it's a fun group to play with..the regulars, the fair ones who don't have a reason not to show up

Fun, my heiny. Age group tournaments are "open", so yer always getting yer *** kicked by teaching pros and former All-Americans.

Actually, it *has* been a lot of fun, especially getting to know some of the top players in the country - and what you can learn by watching them - and by getting drubbed by them.