2012 Year End Ratings

[dizzlmcwizzl]

Originally Posted by Topaz

I played BH side, which I think helped for ROS. The only ones I never ever got back were high kickers to my BH.

The closest part of my game to the 4.5 level is the serve. I have noticed that if I am trying to win and place serves carefully with spin the ladies have very little chance ... however if I am determined to show everyone the size of my .... racket .... and hit hard flat serves the women have a very easy time blocking it back into play. This is almost the complete reverse of the men.

[Angle Queen]

Originally Posted by Topaz

And if the other guy does hold, fine...as long as we held and we broke the opposing female, then we were fine.

This is (or should be) the mantra for successful mixed play, especially at the higher levels.

My partner and I worked well together...both singles players, haha! He is super tall (ask AQ, she saw us play this year) and my job was to be consistent and keep the ball in play until he could put it away.

Here to confirm. Topaz was Ms. Consistency and said-partner was The Closer, a net monster and monster server. On a side note, of the pair they played the time I watched them, the opposing female was bumped....up....to 4.5 (deservedly, in my opinion...not so much based on that day's play but her record in our area throughout the season).

But seriously, it's hard to beat a 4.5M/3.5W at 8.0 Mixed. Invariably, they're both at the top of their class. It's part of the reason I am against "combo" play for mixed. The potential disparity is even more pronounced in true Combo (6.5, 7.5, 8.5) but I don't like it even in "8.0". I mean, why then, don't we have 8.0 Womens? We don't. It's 4.0W and 4.0M...where everyone on the court is 4.0 (or less). Fewer mismatches, generally better, more even "play" -- and isn't that what NTRP is supposed to be designed for?

/another rant...over

[dizzlmcwizzl]

Originally Posted by Cindysphinx

I can assure you that if I were bumped down to 3.5, I would play entire matches hitting nothing but kick serves, hitting drop shots, and slicing my head off. I cannot do these things in 4.0 matches because these shots still need work, and my partners would not stand for my developing my game in the middle of competitive matches.

Getting bumped up has done this for me ... I know that I will not be playing for districts or sectionals anytime soon as there are about 1000 4.5's better than me in my section. Even if my team does happen to make it, I would never see the court.

So this is going to open up time for me to work on my game ... not in league matches but rather I can work on those things in all the free evenings I am going to have for the next season or two until I get better or bumped back down.

[Topaz]

Originally Posted by Angle Queen

This is (or should be) the mantra for successful mixed play, especially at the higher levels.

Here to confirm. Topaz was Ms. Consistency and said-partner was The Closer, a net monster and monster server. On a side note, of the pair they played the time I watched them, the opposing female was bumped....up....to 4.5 (deservedly, in my opinion...not so much based on that day's play but her record in our area throughout the season).

But seriously, it's hard to beat a 4.5M/3.5W at 8.0 Mixed. Invariably, they're both at the top of their class. It's part of the reason I am against "combo" play for mixed. The potential disparity is even more pronounced in true Combo (6.5, 7.5, 8.5) but I don't like it even in "8.0". I mean, why then, don't we have 8.0 Womens? We don't. It's 4.0W and 4.0M...where everyone on the court is 4.0 (or less). Fewer mismatches, generally better, more even "play" -- and isn't that what NTRP is supposed to be designed for?

/another rant...over

That's a good point AQ...8.0 women's could/should also be 3.5+4.5!! (and men's too, I suppose) Never thought of it that way.

That match was not a good returning match for me, but again...at districts all I saw were kickers wide to my BH. Worst was at sectionals in our second match against DC...I was almost in the court next to us, and STILL not getting the serve back! (a match we won 4 and 4...let the guy hold, but not the girl!!!)

That philosophy does put pressure on my own service games, but I know my best mixed partner is an aggressive net player...so as long I get my first serve and placed reasonably well, things usually are good to go.

Combo mixed is kind of a joke at this point...most of the 7.5 teams are really 8.5! My main partner got bumped to 4.5, and one of my two remaining partners also got bumped. And same story on Downs' team. That's what happens with the last league of the year I suppose. I wonder if having ESR around here would help alleviate that, or not matter at all?

She got bumped to 4.5? I remember she had *solid* groundies, and was much more comfy at the baseline. We picked up on that pretty quickly. We had a nice match...quite contrary to the court next to us, which I thought was going to go to fisticuffs at one point.

[NumbersGuy]

Originally Posted by schmke

Correct.

Now, to be complete, there are a few other ways to become benchmark, being DQ'd gives one a B rating I believe, but advancing to playoffs is the most common way to achieve one.

Correct, being DQed does give one a B rating. This might be a new feature, but YE12 ratings certainly reflect this.

[NumbersGuy]

Originally Posted by Playtennis

I got bumped down- 4.0 to 3.5 which makes no sense but it is what it is. My record had many many close matches. So my question is this..... Whats the quickest way to get bumped back up? Should i play 3.5 at all or play 4.0?

I'm surprised nobody has suggested this approach:

1. Practice
2. Take lessons
3. Practice

I believe you'll find it to be most effective. Possibly not the quickest, but with more staying power.

[Cindysphinx]

On the subject of mixed:

I would agree that mixed 8.0 should be 4.0 players only (and 3.5s playing up with 4.0s). 7.0 should be 3.5 players only. And so on. I mean, rec tennis is supposed to be fun. How is it fun for anyone to have some 4.5 guy fire twist serves at me for me to whiff them? With a 4.0 guy, I have a decent shot at the serve.

Interesting idea about the woman receiving on the ad side. I used to receive on the ad side, but I have switched. I found it was important to have the guy's FH overhead in the middle as much as possible.

[Topaz]

One of my partners was a lefty. The other preferred fh side. He still took the overheads in the middle. Running around wasn't an issue.

[Alchemy-Z]

Do retirements count at all?

I was wonder because I have 3 people retire against me last season and I had an undefeated record with no bump...so wondering if that is where I got diluted

I had already won the first set in all 3 matches
one reitred beginning of the 2nd set
one 2nd game of second set
3rd retired in the 10 point match break

[JLyon]

Originally Posted by Alchemy-Z

Do retirements count at all?

I was wonder because I have 3 people retire against me last season and I had an undefeated record with no bump...so wondering if that is where I got diluted

I had already won the first set in all 3 matches
one reitred beginning of the 2nd set
one 2nd game of second set
3rd retired in the 10 point match break

Was told you need to play 7 games for it to have any affect on rating or to count as a match played.

[NumbersGuy]

I've been told you have to have played one complete set, so I don't think 4-3, retired (i.e. 7 games) would count. But then 6-0, retired probably wouldn't count either (just as 6-0, 6-0 does not unless you're an S, A, or T). So maybe it's at least one set and at least 7 games.

[Playtennis]

Originally Posted by OrangePower

In general, yes, assuming you can get a reasonable number of matches at the higher level - obviously, chances of moving up are not good if you only get to play 1 or 2 matches.

But assuming a similar number of matches, it comes down to what DNTRP delta you can achieve/expect per match (the incremental dynamic rating increase/decrease you get following each match).

If you are a top 3.5 playing 3.5, you are *expected* to beat most other 3.5s. USTA says 6-1 or even 6-0 sets are to be expected when a person at top of level plays a person at bottom of level. So basically, as a top 3.5, you don't get much incremental rating increase by beating up on weaker 3.5s, or even convincingly beating mid-level 3.5s - because that's already expected of you. You can get some increases by beating other top level 3.5s, but who's to say how many of those you are going to face. That's why you sometimes see players with great records and convincing wins still not get bumped up - because the wins did not come against opponents with high-enough dynamic ratings.

On the other hand, when you play up, you are expected to get killed. So any scores that are better than a complete beat-down are going to increase your dynamic rating. So for example if you are a 3.5 playing average 4.0s, and you lose all your matches 3 & 3, that is likely to be enough to get you bumped up... because that would give you results similar to what would be expected of a low-level 4.0 vs mid-level 4.0s. And even against higher-level 4.0s, you can generally scrape together a few games (some stronger players will lose focus once it's clear they are going to win).

Purely anecdotal, but in my experience the majority of players who get bumped up played some at the higher-level already in the year prior (usually in addition to their rated level). It's harder (but obviously not impossible) to get bumped up playing only at your rated level.

BTW I am thinking mostly of singles. The same logic applies to dubs, but the waters are muddied because then your partner's rating also comes into play. In terms of bump-up odds, you're better off playing with a weaker partner (assuming you can carry him and still get results). Playing with a stronger partner increases the combined rating of your team which raises the bar of what results you are expected to get before you get any dynamic ratings increases.

So if I play 4.0 with a strong 4.0 I'm doomed unless we win?

[schmke]

Originally Posted by Playtennis

So if I play 4.0 with a strong 4.0 I'm doomed unless we win?

You aren't doomed, but yes, playing with a stronger partner raises the bar on your expected result, but that may or may not be a win.

If your opponents are also strong 4.0s you may still be expected to lose, perhaps fairly big, so a close loss could still improve your rating.

But if your opponents are weaker 4.0s, even as a 3.5, when playing with a strong 4.0, you may be expected to win. For example, say you are a strong 3.5 (3.45) and you play with a strong 4.0 (3.95). Your combined rating is 7.4 or average is 3.7 which is close to an "average" 4.0. If you play two opponents that are a bit below average (3.65), you would be expected to win (or technically, to win more games than the opponents).

But with the strong partner, you very well may win, and if you don't (or again, technically if you lose more games than the opponents), the computer takes it as an indication that you and your partner weren't as strong as thought and you'd be adjusted down.

If you were to play this same match but with a weaker 4.0 (3.65), your average would be 3.55 and you'd be expected to lose so a win (or even losing very very close) may improve your rating.

[g4driver]

And what do you make of this:

a strong 3.5 player beats two other strong 3.5 players in very close matches 6-4, 4-6, 11-9 TB and 6-4, 6-7, 11-9 TB

these matches count toward their DNTRPS (both losers to this guy get bumped to 4.0), but not the winner of these matches. Ok

But both players who lost to the 3.5, lost two singles matches and are bumped to 4.0

The 3.5 not bumped goes 7-1, with only one loss at doubles 3&4 and stays at 3.5

any thoughts? The 3.5 had a 4.0E last fall, but no bump at the end of 2011.

My explanation: the 3.5 lost in doubles to a strong 3.5 / average 3.5 (who had played lost 5 matches with a very weak 3.5)

The one loss to the strong 3.5 / avg 3.5 was like App St beating Michigan and the USTA expected result was easy win. The loss pummeled the 3.5 who went 5-0 in singles and only loss this match.

[tennisplayer3275]

The USTA NTRP ratings haven't made sense in years...probably never will. They like to keep us all guessing.

[schmke]

Originally Posted by g4driver

And what do you make of this:

a strong 3.5 player beats two other strong 3.5 players in very close matches 6-4, 4-6, 11-9 TB and 6-4, 6-7, 11-9 TB

these matches count toward their DNTRPS (both losers to this guy get bumped to 4.0), but not the winner of these matches. Ok

But both players who lost to the 3.5, lost two singles matches and are bumped to 4.0

The 3.5 not bumped goes 7-1, with only one loss at doubles 3&4 and stays at 3.5

any thoughts? The 3.5 had a 4.0E last fall, but no bump at the end of 2011.

My explanation: the 3.5 lost in doubles to a strong 3.5 / average 3.5 (who had played lost 5 matches with a very weak 3.5)

The one loss to the strong 3.5 / avg 3.5 was like App St beating Michigan and the USTA expected result was easy win. The loss pummeled the 3.5 who went 5-0 in singles and only loss this match.

Entirely possible. Without more info and the specific players involved in all matches, I can't really say, but yes, a loss to a weaker team could be the match rating that pulls the overall rating down. But even the other wins may not have been matches that were rated high enough if the opponents were weak and/or the partner was strong.

[schmke]

Originally Posted by tennisplayer3275

The USTA NTRP ratings haven't made sense in years...probably never will. They like to keep us all guessing.

I disagree. They make sense, there are just a boat load of dependencies (partner's rating, opponents rating, at the time of the match, score of the match) that make trying to understand them difficult, particularly when one focuses on the win-loss record. Mind you, it is natural to focus on win-loss record as we are programmed to do that from other sports and without a lot of work, there isn't a way to know the ratings of all the opponents to figure it all out.

Any accurate rating system (not that the NTRP is perfect of course) is going to be pretty complex, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't make sense.

[dizzlmcwizzl]

Originally Posted by Playtennis

So if I play 4.0 with a strong 4.0 I'm doomed unless we win?

NO, but the best way to ensure you get bumped is to play up and play well.

[dizzlmcwizzl]

The other component of getting a ratings bump that has not been mentioned is the weighting of the playoffs for your year end rating. My understanding is that the USTA somehow uses a weighted average of your playoff performance and your dynamic rating to get your year end rating. No playoffs ... and they just use your dynamic rating at year end.

What this means is that players who are bumped usually fall into two distinct categories.

1) Good players that play up .... discussed at length here

and

2) Good players on good playoff teams.... Because they play in the playoffs these players likely get better opponents and doing well against these good players has a more dramatic effect on their ratings. Essentially because these matches against good players occurred in the playoffs they count double which can help you more.

I think I fall into the second category ... I was good relative to my 4.0 peers within my district but I do not think I would have been bumped had I not performed well in sectionals the last two years.

[beernutz]

Originally Posted by dizzlmcwizzl

The other component of getting a ratings bump that has not been mentioned is the weighting of the playoffs for your year end rating. My understanding is that the USTA somehow uses a weighted average of your playoff performance and your dynamic rating to get your year end rating. No playoffs ... and they just use your dynamic rating at year end.

What this means is that players who are bumped usually fall into two distinct categories.

1) Good players that play up .... discussed at length here

and

2) Good players on good playoff teams.... Because they play in the playoffs these players likely get better opponents and doing well against these good players has a more dramatic effect on their ratings. Essentially because these matches against good players occurred in the playoffs they count double which can help you more.

I think I fall into the second category ... I was good relative to my 4.0 peers within my district but I do not think I would have been bumped had I not performed well in sectionals the last two years.

Based on my own experience I believe this to be the case, but in my situation I think I *didn't* get the bump because of my poor performance at state. I had a pretty good year in league and beat three players who got bumped up and lost in singles to players who were both bumped up (I lost one time to a player who was DQed so I technically won that one). I also had some dominant wins over poor to moderate players at my level (1/1, 0/2, 0/2) late in the season.

However, I think the reason I didn't get the bump is that I had a pretty poor state tournament going 0-2 in singles and 1-2 in doubles with every match decided one way or the other by a tiebreak. One of my singles opponents at state also got the bump but overall I think my record there was a large part of why I am still at my current level next year.

On the other hand, as the saying goes, if you torture the data long enough it will confess to anything. Where's my cattle prod?