Forehand Topspin Drive

[5263]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

the "across" is a function of body rotation and pronation. you are not trying to swing across (in fact you try to swing as much in line with the ball exit path as possible. but since the swing is rotational you will not be able to hold that line for more than a fraction and then it goes "across".

for a CC shot you really hit "across" but only compared to the side line not ball flight.

the across is just a combination of the upward brushing and rotation (of spine and arm) it's nothing you should do intentionally.

And this is where we differ a bit. I respect the above opinion to see it that way,
but when I do the across part, I do intend to do it for a couple of important
reasons. Imo when you try not to follow the natural rotational arc, and seek to
extend further straight out, you tend to
get a push behind the ball that works against you.
also when you work across the ball with the natural arc, the swing is smoother
and you can control net clearnce better in my experience.

[TheCheese]

Originally Posted by 5263

And this is where we differ a bit. I respect the above opinion to see it that way,
but when I do the across part, I do intend to do it for a couple of important
reasons. Imo when you try not to follow the natural rotational arc, and seek to
extend further straight out, you tend to
get a push behind the ball that works against you.
also when you work across the ball with the natural arc, the swing is smoother
and you can control net clearnce better in my experience.

Exactly.

Trying to brush up while extending results in lower acceleration that comes from the shoulder. If you brush across you are pulling your arm in by bending at the elbow and this generates much more acceleration.

[dominikk1985]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

Exactly.

Trying to brush up while extending results in lower acceleration that comes from the shoulder. If you brush across you are pulling your arm in by bending at the elbow and this generates much more acceleration.

No. you are not trying to extend but also not bending. the across comes from internal rotation of the humerus and forearm. the arm angle remains mainly constant.

I agree that you should not try to force a linear path but you should not try to swing across abruptly. just a natural circular path around the body.

here is the vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtuTHsFlfGg

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

Exactly.

Trying to brush up while extending results in lower acceleration that comes from the shoulder. If you brush across you are pulling your arm in by bending at the elbow and this generates much more acceleration.

For powerful shots, you should not "brush."

Originally Posted by TheCheese

Exactly.

Trying to brush up while extending results in lower acceleration that comes from the shoulder. If you brush across you are pulling your arm in by bending at the elbow and this generates much more acceleration.

Wait a minute. The acceleration is "built in" as the hand starts to move inside, or closer to the midline....(as a result of shoulder internal rotation, pronation) no need to force it in most cases

[TheCheese]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

No. you are not trying to extend but also not bending. the across comes from internal rotation of the humerus and forearm. the arm angle remains mainly constant.

I agree that you should not try to force a linear path but you should not try to swing across abruptly. just a natural circular path around the body.

here is the vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtuTHsFlfGg

As much as I love Will, he's talking about a different technique than what 5263 and I are. (Or is at least describing it very differently!)

His WW technique seems to be better suited to players that use a much more western grip. The technique I'm talking about is more applicable to players that are using semi-western to an eastern grip.

This is the technique I'm referring to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qxz2Vc0g2I

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

As much as I love Will, he's talking about a different technique than what 5263 and I are. (Or is at least describing it very differently!)

His WW technique seems to be better suited to players that use a much more western grip. The technique I'm talking about is more applicable to players that are using semi-western to an eastern grip.

This is the technique I'm referring to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qxz2Vc0g2I

That is a desperate on the run and stretched out wide forehand. Bad example.

[TheCheese]

Originally Posted by sureshs

That is a desperate on the run and stretched out wide forehand. Bad example.

Why is that a bad example? It's typically how he hits his forehand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOKptwpu--0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVZVQMsb1AY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syd00cQVUj0


Watch any video of Federer or Nadal's forehand, really.

[dominikk1985]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

As much as I love Will, he's talking about a different technique than what 5263 and I are. (Or is at least describing it very differently!)

His WW technique seems to be better suited to players that use a much more western grip. The technique I'm talking about is more applicable to players that are using semi-western to an eastern grip.

This is the technique I'm referring to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Qxz2Vc0g2I

to me that is the same, fed is just using a little more forward and less up motion because it is a flatter shot. I know some people are trying to construct some magical moves (like the racket face closing because the ball is hit below center or some sudden direction changes) but IMO that is not really happening.

I think there are really only 3 factors that are combined in different doses:

1.up
2.forward
3.around (rotation)

there are no secret forces it just a combination of some well known biomechanical principles. There is a lot of "bro science" out there (even among good coaches and players).

[dominikk1985]

see how federer swing through and then around:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc

he is certainly not taking a "hard left" turn.

Originally Posted by TheCheese

Why is that a bad example? It's typically how he hits his forehand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOKptwpu--0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVZVQMsb1AY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syd00cQVUj0


Watch any video of Federer or Nadal's forehand, really.

Actually the forehand as prescribed by 5263 and Oscar are what I consider quite old school.....Not many current pro's hit as they describe which is a quick break of the elbow (quick left) and over the shoulder finish..(which tends to limit rotation of teh arm/wiping action) No, most pros (at least on standard drives) allow the arm to move on it's natural arc, and wipe the hell out of it, which generally leads to a lower finish.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

Why is that a bad example? It's typically how he hits his forehand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOKptwpu--0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVZVQMsb1AY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Syd00cQVUj0


Watch any video of Federer or Nadal's forehand, really.

So beautiful.

[TheCheese]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

to me that is the same, fed is just using a little more forward and less up motion because it is a flatter shot. I know some people are trying to construct some magical moves (like the racket face closing because the ball is hit below center or some sudden direction changes) but IMO that is not really happening.

I think there are really only 3 factors that are combined in different doses:

1.up
2.forward
3.around (rotation)

there are no secret forces it just a combination of some well known biomechanical principles. There is a lot of "bro science" out there (even among good coaches and players).

Maybe different ways of explaining it work a lot better for different people, then. The way Will explains it, it's a windshield wiper motion that turns at the elbow.

The technique I'm talking about is brushing up and across the ball, leading with the side of the racket and pulling inward and to the left.

[dominikk1985]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

Maybe different ways of explaining it work a lot better for different people, then. The way Will explains it, it's a windshield wiper motion that turns at the elbow.

The technique I'm talking about is brushing up and across the ball, leading with the side of the racket and pulling inward and to the left.

well that might work for some but to me your description is bro science. it might work as a cue but it is not what is actually happening. but the FYB vid is not describing it all correct too. the WW is pronation and internal rotation of the shoulder. the elbow has not much to do it. the leading with the edge comes if you have a little more forward and less upward component.


BTW fed is swinging in line with the ball longer than anyone else on the tour. he is the master of extension.
[img=http://s11.postimage.org/cui9o24nj/fed2.jpg]

[dominikk1985]

Originally Posted by 5263

And this is where we differ a bit. I respect the above opinion to see it that way,
but when I do the across part, I do intend to do it for a couple of important
reasons. Imo when you try not to follow the natural rotational arc, and seek to
extend further straight out, you tend to
get a push behind the ball that works against you.
also when you work across the ball with the natural arc, the swing is smoother
and you can control net clearnce better in my experience.

that is the key to me. extending past the natural arc (although fed seems to sometimes do that a little) is not good because it ruins rotational momentum but taking a hard left (more than the natural arc) is not good either.

[TheCheese]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

well that might work for some but to me your description is bro science. it might work as a cue but it is not what is actually happening. but the FYB vid is not describing it all correct too. the WW is pronation and internal rotation of the shoulder. the elbow has not much to do it. the leading with the edge comes if you have a little more forward and less upward component.


BTW fed is swinging in line with the ball longer than anyone else on the tour. he is the master of extension.
[img=http://s11.postimage.org/cui9o24nj/fed2.jpg]

He is swinging up and across AS he extends. Yes.

I don't know what you mean by it being bro science. I wasn't trying to be scientific at all... It's just a way of explaining the motion. I don't think explaining the exact biomechanics of it would be a helpful mental tool for most people.

[5263]

Originally Posted by chico9166

Wait a minute. The acceleration is "built in" as the hand starts to move inside, or closer to the midline....(as a result of shoulder internal rotation, pronation) no need to force it in most cases

But when the bold above happens...you are working across.

You are right...no need to force...but force is not the same intending a certain type of motion.

[LeeD]

Your shoulder's will always be attached to your arm, which is attached to your racket...that determines your swing path.
Just hit the ball fast, put some topspin on it, the mechanics don't matter, as we're all physically similar here.

[5263]

Originally Posted by chico9166

Actually the forehand as prescribed by 5263 and Oscar are what I consider quite old school.....Not many current pro's hit as they describe which is a quick break of the elbow (quick left) and over the shoulder finish..(which tends to limit rotation of teh arm/wiping action) No, most pros (at least on standard drives) allow the arm to move on it's natural arc, and wipe the hell out of it, which generally leads to a lower finish.

You never heard me say to finish over the should unless talking of the basic
modern Fh or not to finish lower, which is just another flourish to that basic
Fh.
You never heard me or Oscar say quick break of the elbow, hard turn, or abrupt
bla, bla ....on and on of words you try to add to the basic correct description to
make it something it is not.
Most pros finish in about any position from low to bolo and everything in-between. There is no set low or any other finish. There is just a swing path
that will finish somewhere based on the shape of the swing.

[5263]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

He is swinging up and across AS he extends. Yes.

I don't know what you mean by it being bro science. I wasn't trying to be scientific at all... It's just a way of explaining the motion. I don't think explaining the exact biomechanics of it would be a helpful mental tool for most people.

Basically well said here. Wil does talk more about the elbow, but not much of
that talk in mtm or modern. Elbow is more a part of it when you don't use the
straight arm technique, but we still don't focus on much on the elbow movement.