What was up with Connors - May to July 1984

[Gizo]

I agree that Lendl's RG title (when he beat the Italian Open champion Gomez in quarters, and the 1982 champion and 1983 finalist Wilander in the semis before overcoming Mac) has been downplayed here. 'If not for his RG win' is not a good arguement at all. He did win it, and thus that achievement was far more significant than anything that Connors achieved all year. Both players were very consistent throughout the whole year, regularly reaching the latter stages of tournaments big or small, but Lendl also had a very important title win where he beat the dominant player in the world in the final.

Connors failed to win any of the blue chip events in 1984 and had a terrible record overall against his 3 main rivals that year, with losing records against all of them. Not a very strong case for being the second best player of the year at all, against a player with a blue chip title win and a more respectable record against the big guns.

Even in non-official/invitational tournaments which were important back then, Lendl's body of work was probably better than Connors's in 1984 as well, with him winning the European Champions' Challenge in Antwerp for the second time plus a couple of other events.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Gizo

I agree that Lendl's RG title (when he beat the Italian Open champion Gomez in quarters, and the 1982 champion and 1983 finalist Wilander in the semis before overcoming Mac) has been downplayed here. 'If not for his RG win' is not a good arguement at all. He did win it, and thus that achievement was far more significant than anything that Connors achieved all year. Both players were very consistent throughout the whole year, regularly reaching the latter stages of tournaments big or small, but Lendl also had a very important title win where he beat the dominant player in the world in the final.

Connors failed to win any of the blue chip events in 1984 and had a terrible record overall against his 3 main rivals that year, with losing records against all of them. Not a very strong case for being the second best player of the year at all, against a player with a blue chip title win and a more respectable record against the big guns.

Even in non-official/invitational tournaments which were important back then, Lendl's body of work was probably better than Connors's in 1984 as well, with him winning the European Champions' Challenge in Antwerp for the second time plus a couple of other events.

Antwerp began in 1985

[Gizo]

Originally Posted by kiki

Antwerp began in 1985

No it began in 1982, and Lendl beat McEnroe in the final that year. At the time many people considered it to be an impressive and proper title for Lendl, even though it wasn't officially counted by the ATP.

1985 was when Lendl won his 3rd title at Antwerp, beating Mac in the final again to take that golden racket home (players to needed to win the event 3 times within 5 years to receive the racket).

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Gizo

No it began in 1982, and Lendl beat McEnroe in the final that year. At the time many people considered it to be an impressive and proper title for Lendl, even though it wasn't officially counted by the ATP.

1985 was when Lendl won his 3rd title at Antwerp, beating Mac in the final again to take that golden racket home (players to needed to win the event 3 times within 5 years to receive the racket).

Completely right, I think I got confused with Lendl winning Golden Racket in 85

A great semiofficial event in any case and far above the Gran Slam Cup held later in Munich

[Gizo]

Originally Posted by kiki

Completely right, I think I got confused with Lendl winning Golden Racket in 85

A great semiofficial event in any case and far above the Gran Slam Cup held later in Munich

Yes it was an excellent tournament and that attracted very strong fields. Defini
tely a much stronger event than many of the official ATP sanctioned ones.

The Molson Challenge in Canada and the Beaver Creek Classic were also high quality unofficial events.

[jrepac]

Originally Posted by Gizo

I agree that Lendl's RG title (when he beat the Italian Open champion Gomez in quarters, and the 1982 champion and 1983 finalist Wilander in the semis before overcoming Mac) has been downplayed here. 'If not for his RG win' is not a good arguement at all. He did win it, and thus that achievement was far more significant than anything that Connors achieved all year. Both players were very consistent throughout the whole year, regularly reaching the latter stages of tournaments big or small, but Lendl also had a very important title win where he beat the dominant player in the world in the final.

Connors failed to win any of the blue chip events in 1984 and had a terrible record overall against his 3 main rivals that year, with losing records against all of them. Not a very strong case for being the second best player of the year at all, against a player with a blue chip title win and a more respectable record against the big guns.

Even in non-official/invitational tournaments which were important back then, Lendl's body of work was probably better than Connors's in 1984 as well, with him winning the European Champions' Challenge in Antwerp for the second time plus a couple of other events.

Does anyone have their respective 1984 winning percentages? I do wonder how close they were on that particular metric. Sure, 1 RG has a lot more prestige than 5 smaller tourneys, that's true. But, over the course of the year, wins are wins in the ATP ranking system. I also agree that vs. top 3, Connors did not have a very good year...Lendl was the only one he beat....losing to Wilander twice late in the season and to Mac 6 times over. These are all truths. If he had pulled off a Wimby or USO victory, I think the POV would be quite different, but that just was not in the cards.

[jrepac]

Originally Posted by Gizo

Yes it was an excellent tournament and that attracted very strong fields. Defini
tely a much stronger event than many of the official ATP sanctioned ones.

The Molson Challenge in Canada and the Beaver Creek Classic were also high quality unofficial events.

I miss those kinds of events. They were a lot of fun to watch and could be quite competitive. Big money in them too. Oh well, such were the boom days of tennis.

[Moose Malloy]

But, over the course of the year, wins are wins in the ATP ranking system

not in the 80s. WCT events & the Masters didn't count towards the ATP ranking.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Gizo

Even in non-official/invitational tournaments which were important back then, Lendl's body of work was probably better than Connors's in 1984 as well, with him winning the European Champions' Challenge in Antwerp for the second time plus a couple of other events.

In '84:

Lendl won 5 non-sanctioned events, including ECC and a win over McEnroe at Suntory Cup (6-4, 3-6, 6-2): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Le...inals_.2862.29. Would be interesting to know how many times McEnroe lost in these types of events, we all know he had 3 official losses for the year.

Connors won 1 non-sanctioned event: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_C...8_man_Field.29

McEnroe won 2 non-sanctioned events, including AKAI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mc...singles_titles

Wilander's Wikipedia page has no section for non-sanctioned events.

So if all events are counted, Lendl leads Connors 8 to 6 in total tournament victories, 1 to 0 in Slam count and 3-2 in H2H.

Well it's 3-2 in the official H2H, I don't actually know whether Lendl and Connors met in the non-sanctioned events.

[Goosehead]

hmm july 1984..hot sunny day, when connors was destroyed in the wimbledon final..

connors was nearly 32 yrs old..was he tired ??..or just couldnt cope with megamac ??..or an off day for connors..??

[jrepac]

Originally Posted by Goosehead

hmm july 1984..hot sunny day, when connors was destroyed in the wimbledon final..

connors was nearly 32 yrs old..was he tired ??..or just couldnt cope with megamac ??..or an off day for connors..??

all of the above, I would suspect. Although, in retrospect, I think he was trying to play Mac a bit too aggressively (serving & volleying) and getting slaughtered. He needed to find a way to slow it all down, perhaps let Mac, come down to Earth a bit. Maybe get into Mac's head a bit. But that never happened.

Mac was just playing too well that season. He creamed Connors a week earlier at Queen's as well. It was unusual for him to beat Jimmy THAT easily on a fast grass surface....he was playing some phenomenal tennis.

[Mustard]

Connors had beaten McEnroe in the Queen's Club finals of both 1982 and 1983, as well as their big match at the 1982 Wimbledon final. The tables totally turned in their 1984 grass-court matches, McEnroe winning easily at both Queen's Club and Wimbledon.

McEnroe's dominance over Connors in 1984 also turned around their official head-to-head.

[jrepac]

Originally Posted by Mustard

Connors had beaten McEnroe in the Queen's Club finals of both 1982 and 1983, as well as their big match at the 1982 Wimbledon final. The tables totally turned in their 1984 grass-court matches, McEnroe winning easily at both Queen's Club and Wimbledon.

McEnroe's dominance over Connors in 1984 also turned around their official head-to-head.

This is true; Connors did not beat Mac again until the late '80s.....after Mac went on his sabbatical and forgot how to play great tennis.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by jrepac

This is true; Connors did not beat Mac again until the late '80s.....after Mac went on his sabbatical and forgot how to play great tennis.

Some permanent memory loss occurred there.

[timnz]

Originally Posted by jrepac

This is true; Connors did not beat Mac again until the late '80s.....after Mac went on his sabbatical and forgot how to play great tennis.

McEnroe was number 4 in the world when Connors beat him in 89! (Past his best but number 4 in the world is still no slouch).

[Ronaldo]

How bout Connors at the 1990 French Open third round agin Chang?

[Goosehead]

Originally Posted by jrepac

all of the above, I would suspect. Although, in retrospect, I think he was trying to play Mac a bit too aggressively (serving & volleying) and getting slaughtered. He needed to find a way to slow it all down, perhaps let Mac, come down to Earth a bit. Maybe get into Mac's head a bit. But that never happened.

Mac was just playing too well that season. He creamed Connors a week earlier at Queen's as well. It was unusual for him to beat Jimmy THAT easily on a fast grass surface....he was playing some phenomenal tennis.

yeh, mcenroe couldnt miss really..i think he was really 'in the zone' maybe losing the french open final in such a horrendous manner helped him focus all the more..

then again maybe the french open had nothing to do with it lol

also when watching the olympic 2012 final and how 'off the pace' federer was compared to wimby final..made me think of connors-supermac at sw19..one sided contest between players age 25 - 30/31.

[Gizo]

Originally Posted by jrepac

Does anyone have their respective 1984 winning percentages? I do wonder how close they were on that particular metric. Sure, 1 RG has a lot more prestige than 5 smaller tourneys, that's true. But, over the course of the year, wins are wins in the ATP ranking system. I also agree that vs. top 3, Connors did not have a very good year...Lendl was the only one he beat....losing to Wilander twice late in the season and to Mac 6 times over. These are all truths. If he had pulled off a Wimby or USO victory, I think the POV would be quite different, but that just was not in the cards.

Connors's overall win-loss record was significantly better than Lendl's that year actually, 74-14 for Connors across 18 tournaments, as opposed to 62-16 for Lendl across 16 tournaments. So that is a plus point in Connors favour.

The thing to remember though it that it's not just 1 RG title for Lendl vs 5 smaller titles for Connors. It's 1 RG title plus 2 smaller titles vs 5 smaller titles. Lendl's second best title in 1984, Wembley (where he beat Connors in the semis), was just as big as Connors's best title that year, Tokyo (where he beat Lendl in the final). 2 extra smaller titles for Connors is not a hugely significant gap. If Connors had a Dallas or Masters title then I could see there being a case for him, but not without a title at any of the 5-6 biggest events of the year.

As krosero mentioned, 1983 was almost a role-reversal of 1984 between Lendl and Connors. That year Lendl finished the year at no. 2, and Connors at no. 3. Connors won 4 official titles including the US Open. Lendl won 7 titles but none of them came at the majors, Masters or WCT finals. Lendl also had 21 more official match wins than Connors that year. Surely though most people would say that Connors had a better year than Lendl in 1983, and the opposite was true in 1984.

Then again bringing their non-sanctioned titles in the discussion, that further strengthens the case for Lendl as krosero has said, with 5 titles for Lendl including the ECC in Antwerp, the Molson Challenge in Canada and the Suntory Cup in Tokyo to 1 for Connors (although that was a very important one at the Challenge of Champions in Rosemont).

Still incredible for Connors to be so strong and so consistent at the age of 31/32.

[Gizo]

Originally Posted by jrepac

I miss those kinds of events. They were a lot of fun to watch and could be quite competitive. Big money in them too. Oh well, such were the boom days of tennis.

Yes pack crowds all over the world for those events, and the players took them every bit as seriously, if not more so, than many of the official sanctioned events. In many years the top players entered more unofficial events and invitationals than official ones.

It's a shame that the ATP and their records were a complete mess back then, and that the title counts of Connors, Lendl, McEnroe, Borg etc are all significantly understated.

[krosero]

Originally Posted by Gizo

As krosero mentioned, 1983 was almost a role-reversal of 1984 between Lendl and Connors. That year Lendl finished the year at no. 2, and Connors at no. 3. Connors won 4 official titles including the US Open. Lendl won 7 titles but none of them came at the majors, Masters or WCT finals. Lendl also had 21 more official match wins than Connors that year. Surely though most people would say that Connors had a better year than Lendl in 1983, and the opposite was true in 1984.

Nice comparison of the two years. I actually hadn't noticed that Connors and Lendl had roughly the same achievements in '83 compared to what they did in '84, if you just switch their names.

And actually in GS results, Lendl's achievements in '83 were stronger than Connors' in '84.

Lendl was runner-up in 2 GS events in '83. Connors reached only 1 GS final in '84.

Lendl in '84 had 1 GS victory and 1 runner-up showing. Connors in '83 had 1 GS victory, but no other GS finals reached.

Yet Connors is ranked ahead of Lendl in '83 -- which I think is right. For the same reasons it seems right to rank Connors behind Lendl in '84.