Full Gut vs Gut/Poly: Spin Potential

[TimothyO]

Well, it's no contest, the gut/poly hybrid wins the spin potential battle big time.

I have two matched and modified PSGTs, one full VS Touch at 55, the other VS Touch/PHT at 55/51.

Have had a few hitting sessions with both. Last night was with members of my men's team one of whom is a giant who hits with extraordinary pace.

Spin is mostly technique and I can certainly generate topspin with homogeneous stringbeds in a variety of frames. And I can hit very respectable topspin ground strokes and serves with full gut. In fact, full gut provides a welcome power boost for hitting penetrating topspin shots.

But sometimes your timing is off and you want to come through th ball a little more. That's when the extra spin potential of gut/poly really shines. Even without perfect timing and tremendous RHS you still get huge RPMs which dramatically increase your margin for error.

And the difference in spin potential isn't marginal. Switching from full gut to the gut/poly hybrid sent a number of balls into the net. Depth also suffered initially upon switching frames due to the tremendous difference in spin access. But once I reset my strokes that extra margin of error made a huge difference in consistency, especially when hitting with more pace.

As a side note if you ever commit to a given frame I strongly recommend that you buy at least two and match them. It's a wonderful way to compare string setups with great accuracy (I have a third PSGT inbound from TW...two will be strung the same way and used for match play while the third will serve as a test bed for fun).

[3fees]

cool

[Davis Cup Fan]

Good to know.
On a side note: when you say you got your racquets matched did you change anything or just match the grams?

[ChicagoJack]

Hi TimothyO -

Yup. I've done the same experiment twice now, one with a matched set of PDs about a year ago, then again about 2 months ago with two P1s. I have come to the very same conclusion. It's not even close, Gut/Poly wins the spin contest by a wide margin.

-Jack

[TimothyO]

Originally Posted by Davis Cup Fan

Good to know.
On a side note: when you say you got your racquets matched did you change anything or just match the grams?

I matched them for static weight, balance, and swing weight. I also made sure that the distribution of lead was virtually identicle so that effects on flex and sweet spot were the same. It's amazing how lead placement can influence feel well beyond weight, SW, and balance. It can make a frame feel more or less precise and more or less comfortable based on placement and effect on sweet spot. Matching frames isn't just weight/balance/SW specs!

For example, placing lead at 3/9 PRECISELY expands the sweet spot and, while it increases tortional stability, that expanded sweet seems to cause problems with deflection angle making the frame less accurate. Moving the lead north of 3/9 provides tortional stability while keeping the string bed a little firmer in that area. For me that means 3/9 generally starts at the 9th cross down and goes up from there, sort of 3-2/9-10.

Surprisingly for Babolat products they started off very close together, more like Dunlop products, so it wasn't too hard. Also, since the stock and modded static weights were about an ounce different I had lots of room to work with. Having that wiggle room makes it easier to match numerical specs AND feel.

I should also note what a huge difference extra weight in the head makes with the PSGT. The demo version felt flat and sort of boardy with vibrations. I added lead tape At 3/9 and 12 (and under the grip). The head lead tape is 1/4" tape cut in half and placed as close as possible to the grommits. It makes the PSGT feel very soft and plush, even with poly crosses.

The final specs are close to the Tour version but I was able to customize the mass distribution to make the frames feel zippier than the Tour.

[dkent]

Are you using the gut in the mains or crosses

[mrmo1115]

Hey TO, have you ever tried PHT/Gut? Its been my set up ever since PHT came out and I've never tried reversing it... any thoughts?

[barnes1172]

How about as compared to Sythetic Gut/ Poly?

I would think this would produce more spin than Gut/Poly, because the Syn Gut strings have a smoother surface, thus causing more sting movement and snap-back.

[TimothyO]

@barnes...have tried SG/Poly and Multi/Poly. Not as much control or spin compared to gut mains imo. The synthetics seem to be shredded or notched differently from natural gut based on their structure. I found solid core SG and multis work better as a main with polys. Multis composed of many, many fibers seem to shred in a manner that increases friciton.

That being said my son and I had some interesting results with TNT multi mains and poly crosses. Juts not as nice as natty gut.

@mrmo...have not done PHT/VS....seems like a waste of expensive gut since most of the feel comes from the mains. Would probably be no different than poly/multi, not really sure. Maybe others who enjoy poly/gut can chime in and provide their experience.

[atatu]

Hey guys, can you tell me what strings were used in Wilson's "Champions Choice" ? I loved that combo but can't find it anymore, I know it was gut and some type of Luxilon.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by atatu

Hey guys, can you tell me what strings were used in Wilson's "Champions Choice" ? I loved that combo but can't find it anymore, I know it was gut and some type of Luxilon.

Luxilon alu pwr rough

[maxpotapov]

Originally Posted by barnes1172

How about as compared to Sythetic Gut/ Poly?

I would think this would produce more spin than Gut/Poly, because the Syn Gut strings have a smoother surface, thus causing more sting movement and snap-back.

Right, but they are less elastic, so actually less movement and snap back

[usta2050]

Originally Posted by ChicagoJack

Hi TimothyO -

Yup. I've done the same experiment twice now, one with a matched set of PDs about a year ago, then again about 2 months ago with two P1s. I have come to the very same conclusion. It's not even close, Gut/Poly wins the spin contest by a wide margin.

-Jack

I fully agree!

[TheCheese]

How does the difference between full gut vs hybrid compare to full poly vs hybrid?

[UCSF2012]

multi/poly and syngut/poly snaps in 2-3 hours for me. Spin potential isn't bad, but the cost of play is astronomical. gut/poly has yet to snap, and I have to cut it out when the gut gets too flanky.

poly/multi generates quite a bit of spin, but the power is noticably lower than gut/poly. I get about the same spin, from what I recall, but I didn't like the sharp power drop on my midsize rac's.

[souledge]

A better comparison is full poly vs. gut / poly hybrid, both silicone sprayed and unsprayed.

[TimothyO]

Originally Posted by souledge

A better comparison is full poly vs. gut / poly hybrid, both silicone sprayed and unsprayed.

I've tried full poly too: RPM, Black Ice, Tour Bite, Black Widow, etc.

Their spin potential might rival gut/poly but then full poly falls down in other key areas such as comfort, feel, and durability (I do have poly crosses cut through gut mains but as long as that doesn't happen the string bed remains playable longer than full poly).

I believe the extra spin from full poly comes more from its lower power and opportunity to hit harder for more spin. I've had full poly stringbeds in which the mains stop sliding back smoothly because the crosses get crumpled and dented trapping the mains. that's far less likely to happen with soft gut mains sliding over harder poly crosses.

As for spraying my strings, no.

[souledge]

On the off chance, have you looked at both poly and gut / poly on low tensions?

When you say durability, you're talking about the playability of the string rather than the string breaking correct?

I usually define it as the former being longevity and the latter being durability.

[Rabbit]

To a large degree, it comes down to racquet acceleration more than anything else. Full poly and or gut/poly may enhance spin, but if the feeling on impact causes you discomfort or worse, pain, you're going to decelerate through the stroke and actually lose spin.

Now this is worsened by the fact that polys play great to begin with, but some time, you notice your arm just isn't as fresh or worse, hurts. When this happens, you naturally avoid what hurts and consequently your swing speed slows down.

I found that out after going on a lark by trying a full bed of syngut. It didn't last too long, but right off the bat, I noticed that it felt like butter, cupped the ball, and I could swing through without hesitation.

Why didn't I convert? Mostly performance. Control wasn't there and I had to really swing all the time to get it.

There is definitely a sweet spot in your string set up. My advice is not to rule anything out.

[TimothyO]

Originally Posted by souledge

On the off chance, have you looked at both poly and gut / poly on low tensions?

When you say durability, you're talking about the playability of the string rather than the string breaking correct?

I usually define it as the former being longevity and the latter being durability.

Those are good distinctions.

For me generally I mean "does the string feel dead or boardy" when I talk about durability. I do break gut mains when using poly crosses but not on a consistent basis. In most cases the poly cross feels dead to me or gets too springy before that point.

When I tried full poly it was always in the mid to high 40s at most. never hit with one long enough to judge either string breakage or "going dead" since I didn't really like how they felt.