Calling footfaults is important

[tennis_ocd]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Read my first post in this thread. It is not about the slight advantage.

Sounds like it's about gamesmanship. Next you can measure his racket, comment on his dampner being in the string bed, shoes too rough for clay court, tennis attire not to club standards, placement of towel, sunglasses reflexing sunlight, type of balls used, stealing a sip of water after 1 game switch, etc. Get into his head and have fun!

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by tennis_ocd

Sounds like it's about gamesmanship. Next you can measure his racket, comment on his dampner being in the string bed, shoes too rough for clay court, tennis attire not to club standards, placement of towel, sunglasses reflexing sunlight, type of balls used, stealing a sip of water after 1 game switch, etc. Get into his head and have fun!

1. Racket measurement not needed. 50% of players do not use illegal rackets, nor would know how to obtain them, but 50% footfault.

2. I have sometimes pointed out dampener being placed improperly (outside of a match). But putting the dampener into the right position will have very little psychological impact on the player. The impact of FF enforcement is huge, as several have testified here.

3. I myself don't call FFs in a match when I am playing. I prefer to spread the gossip from the sidelines when other people are playing, to increase the awareness level. Slowly, we will see a transformation in society by non-violent means.

[Bartelby]

So if someone you've called for foot faulting stands an inch from your face and gives you a dressing down then that's social change through non-violent means as well as your own gossip girl approach.

[tennis_ocd]

Originally Posted by sureshs

I myself don't call FFs in a match when I am playing. I prefer to spread the gossip from the sidelines when other people are playing, to increase the awareness level. Slowly, we will see a transformation in society by non-violent means.

lol. Let's hope the gossip and sideline shouts stay non-violent.

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by Bartelby

You can do whatever you want amongst consenting adults, but the reality is that the rule is that the receiver has no right to call foot faults in non-officiated games.

Whatever semantic gamesmanship you want to play with the FF rule here, one is certainly within their rights and the rules to point it out to the opponent that he is FF'ing. What the perp does after that is up to him and his ethics. If being called on it when he does it, gets into his head, it's his fault for FF'ing and giving his opponent the opportunity to get into his thick head. You may not want to ever play again with someone who calls you on it, but he may not want to play with you again either.

Originally Posted by tennis_ocd

Sounds like it's about gamesmanship. Next you can measure his racket, comment on his dampner being in the string bed, shoes too rough for clay court, tennis attire not to club standards, placement of towel, sunglasses reflexing sunlight, type of balls used, stealing a sip of water after 1 game switch, etc. Get into his head and have fun!

All the things you mention are in the specified rules of tennis or rules for guests and members of tennis clubs and facilities. If you don't like someone getting into your head, then follow the simple rules of the game and don't give them any ammunition--they are so simple to understand and follow. If you want to question authority buy a skateboard.

[tennis_ocd]

Originally Posted by tennis tom

We had warmed up, I served first, FBI, (which means first ball in), as is the "general" convention at this club.

Refresh my memory on the simple and easy to follow rule re: FBI. Sounds as if the guy got into your head.

[Bartelby]

Yes, you can point out that the opponent is foot faulting in America, but unless you can get an official on court that's about it.

But, really, you are not in the right position to make such a judgement and if there is no real benefit to the server it's really a question of your ethics.

The rules for non-officiated tennis are slightly different for good reason, as this thread has amply demonstrated.

Originally Posted by tennis tom

Whatever semantic gamesmanship you want to play with the FF rule here, one is certainly within their rights and the rules to point it out to the opponent that he is FF'ing. What the perp does after that is up to him and his ethics. If being called on it when he does it, gets into his head, it's his fault for FF'ing and giving his opponent the opportunity to get into his thick head. You may not want to ever play again with someone who calls you on it, but he may not want to play with you again either.



All the things you mention are in the specified rules of tennis or rules for guests and members of tennis clubs and facilities. If you don't like someone getting into your head, then follow the simple rules of the game and don't give them any ammunition--they are so simple to understand and follow. If you want to question authority buy a skateboard.

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by tennis_ocd

Refresh my memory on the simple and easy to follow rule re: FBI. Sounds as if the guy got into your head.

I don't understand your question, but if you're asking what does FBI mean, out West it means FIRST BALL (first serve) IN. This is used in lieu of warming up ones serve in the correct fashion, which is taking about six serves from the deuce and then about six from the ad side. In rec play, to speed things along, usually they play first serve in--but taking practice serves when everyone else has taken FBI, AND then calling for first in is bush and inconsiderate to make everyone else stand around.

He did not get in my head from your meaning of the term, that his bush behavior was negative to my performance. He got into my head in the annoying sense. I couldn't understand how a man who holds himself in high esteem, holds a job as a professional and considers himself a sophisticated man of the world, doesn't care to learn the simple rules, conventions and etiquette of a game he's been playing for many years.

There's an expression in tennis, "Don't wake him up", meaning don't piss your opponent off because it will make him play better--that is if they have a game to begin with.

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by Bartelby

Yes, you can point out that the opponent is foot faulting in America, but unless you can get an official on court that's about it.

But, really, you are not in the right position to make such a judgement and if there is no real benefit to the server it's really a question of your ethics.

The rules for non-officiated tennis are slightly different for good reason, as this thread has amply demonstrated.

Speak for yourself, just because you think it's so and say it's so is absolutely meaningless. I'm playing in the good ol' USA, judging by your icon I assume you're playing in Cuba. Fidel and Che can make up any rules they want, they ARE dictators after all. I'm sorry you have not experienced what excellent vision is like. I've worked hard for mine and primarily tennis IS the exercise to develop good vision. There are many ways of improving vision through eye exercises and working with eye therapists, it's like yoga for the eyes. If you'd like to learn more I can recommend some excellent books on vision/VISION. I feel the role of good vision is woefully under valued as an element in the success of great athletes--if you can't see it you can't hit it.


What happens at the service line is multiplied exponentially as the ball travels over the net. An inch or two advantage where the serve is hit from, most certainly translates to a big difference on the other side of the net, especially if one's game is at a finely tuned level. High level tennis is all about hitting the lines.

[Bartelby]

You're a narcissist as well, what a surprise, and an opthalmologist!

Roger Ailes loves you.

Originally Posted by tennis tom

Speak for yourself, just because you think it's so and say it's so is absolutely meaningless. I'm playing in the good ol' USA, judging by your icon I assume you're playing in Cuba. Fidel and Che can make up any rules they want, they ARE dictators after all. I'm sorry you have not experienced what excellent vision is like. I've worked hard for mine and primarily tennis IS the exercise to develop good vision. There are many ways of improving vision through eye exercises and working with eye therapists, it's like yoga for the eyes. If you'd like to learn more I can recommend some excellent books on vision/VISION. I feel the role of good vision is woefully under valued as an element in the success of great athletes--if you can't see it you can't hit it.


What happens at the service line is multiplied exponentially as the ball travels over the net. An inch or two advantage where the serve is hit from, most certainly translates to a big difference on the other side of the net, especially if one's game is at a finely tuned level. High level tennis is all about hitting the lines.

[Oski10s]

Originally Posted by Bartelby

There are rules for officiated games and rules for non-officiated games.

And receivers have either no right or a right in the very final instance to call a foot fault and only when it's flagrant.

Its called a rule book and I quoted from it and it says what I said it says.

http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Gam...Foot_Faulting/

Why not just go straight to the source, as far as the USTA is concerned:

“Compliance with the foot fault rule is very much a function of the player’s personal honor system.”

"For the record, habitual foot faulting is as bad as intentionally cheating on line calls."

"If they are truly guilty of foot faulting, then they are cheating."

Finally, if you guys keep insisting that it's not really an advantage, then why not just back up a few inches so you are not foot faulting? Instead you are basically saying that you like being a cheater and you have no honor?

[Bartelby]

These are not the rules. These are someone's interpretation of what should happen. I've quoted the exact rules above.

He actually confirms what I argued above in that its up to the player committing the foot fault to change his own behaviour.

He also implicitly confirms that it is not the right of the receiver to go around foot faulting people in non-officiated games.

In short, its not up to the self-interested gamesmanship of the receiver.

Your opponent gets to call lines on your ball because he's the closest, but he's not the closest with a foot fault.

And because it is an honour system, foot fault is about the honesty of the server and not the officiousness or gamesmanship of the receiver.

The receiver should advise the server he thinks he's foot faulting, off court preferably.

Originally Posted by Oski10s

http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Gam...Foot_Faulting/

Why not just go straight to the source, as far as the USTA is concerned:

“Compliance with the foot fault rule is very much a function of the player’s personal honor system.”

"For the record, habitual foot faulting is as bad as intentionally cheating on line calls."

"If they are truly guilty of foot faulting, then they are cheating."

Finally, if you guys keep insisting that it's not really an advantage, then why not just back up a few inches so you are not foot faulting? Instead you are basically saying that you like being a cheater and you have no honor?

[Oski10s]

Originally Posted by Bartelby

These are not the rules. These are someone's interpretation of what should happen. I've quoted the exact rules above

ITF Tennis Rules (dated July 16, 2012), please see Rule 18, page 8:

http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medi...4_original.PDF

Since you are obviously too lazy, or stubborn to look up the rules yourself:

18. FOOT FAULT
During the service motion, the server shall not:
a. Change position by walking or running, although slight movements of the feet are permitted; or
b. Touch the baseline or the court with either foot; or
c. Touch the area outside the imaginary extension of the sideline with either
foot; or
d. Touch the imaginary extension of the centre mark with either foot.

If the server breaks this rule it is a “Foot Fault”.

Originally Posted by Bartelby

In short, its not up to the self-interested gamesmanship of the receiver.

Okay, so the cheater is now suggesting that someone that is playing by the rules is somehow doing it out of gamesmanship? So, let me see...I'm going to hook calls and if the other person objects, it's the victim's attempt at gamesmanship?

Maybe it would help if you let us know what country you are located, because obviously you are playing by different rules. Also judging by your interest in Nicki Minaj, I'm going to assume you are a petulant teenager that knows it all and are incapable of acknowledging [foot] fault?

[Bartelby]

I've quoted the rules above for non-officiated games, not officiated games.

No one is disputing what the rule is in officiated games so you need to do some reading about what the precise topic is.

I must thank you for quoting this however because look how much the word 'imaginary' features in the defintion.

Is there anything imaginary about where a ball bounces?

Its a technical rule.

Funnily enough, I wouldn't call the movement of the back foot forward in a pinpoint serve as a 'slight movement', but it is interpreted as such.

Originally Posted by Oski10s

ITF Tennis Rules (dated July 16, 2012), please see Rule 18, page 8:

http://www.itftennis.com/shared/medi...4_original.PDF

Since you are obviously too lazy, or stubborn to look up the rules yourself:

18. FOOT FAULT
During the service motion, the server shall not:
a. Change position by walking or running, although slight movements of the feet are permitted; or
b. Touch the baseline or the court with either foot; or
c. Touch the area outside the imaginary extension of the sideline with either
foot; or
d. Touch the imaginary extension of the centre mark with either foot.

If the server breaks this rule it is a “Foot Fault”.



Okay, so the cheater is now suggesting that someone that is playing by the rules is somehow doing it out of gamesmanship? So, let me see...I'm going to hook calls and if the other person objects, it's the victim's attempt at gamesmanship?

Maybe it would help if you let us know what country you are located, because obviously you are playing by different rules. Also judging by your interest in Nicki Minaj, I'm going to assume you are a petulant teenager that knows it all and are incapable of acknowledging [foot] fault?

[Bartelby]

As I requested above, I asked for rules in non-officiated games from people and have been provided with none.

I've quoted the US and the Australian rules, so if anyone has any rules about receiver's being allowed an unfettered right to call foot faults I'd be happy to know about it.

[Oski10s]

Originally Posted by Bartelby

As I requested above, I asked for rules in non-officiated games from people and have been provided with none.

I've quoted the US and the Australian rules, so if anyone has any rules about receiver's being allowed an unfettered right to call foot faults I'd be happy to know about it.

I played on my high school team growing up in California in the 80s. Back then, it wasn't even a question of calling a foot fault, because it was a fault. I don't know at what juncture it has become a controversial topic? But I will quote the US High School Tennis Association rule on the subject:

"Foot Faults
A player may warn his opponent that the opponent has committed a flagrant foot fault. If the foot faulting continues, the play may attempt to locate an official. If no official is available, the player may call flagrant foot faults. Compliance with the foot fault rule is very much a function of the player's personal honor system."

http://www.ushsta.org/COACHES/PUBLIC...ennisRules.htm

Incidentally I think people that flagrantly foot fault is in fact the ones that are working on "gamesmanship," because they are (1) cheating and (2) rubbing it in your nose. So they should be called out on it. If it gives no advantage (as you've suggested previously), then just step back a couple of inches. But if you insist on cheating, that's your own personal [dis-]honor system.

It's getting tedious to continue this debate. At this point I've provided the official ITF rules (officiated), the USTA opinion (non-officated), the USHSTA rules (non-officated).

[Bartelby]

The rule is the usta one and it makes the calling of foot faults by the receiver a last resort and only when flagrant, whatever that may mean.

Its clear from the way the rule is structured that they really want the receiver to request an official to attend to call a foot fault.

I've got no problems with officials calling foot faults.

It also places the onus on the server to comply with the rule and not on the receiver to police it.

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by Bartelby

You're a narcissist as well, what a surprise, and an opthalmologist!

Roger Ailes loves you.

"If I'm not for myself, who is for me?" (Hillel) My cat loves me.

And I love Roger Ailes as well, as soon as SCOTUS makes marriage legal between LGBT/LSMFT/XY&Z/COUSINS & TRILOBITES, we intend to have a three way marriage with Sean Hannity.

Originally Posted by Oski10s

...I don't know at what juncture it has become a controversial topic?

"Foot Faults
...If no official is available, the player may call flagrant foot faults.

...Incidentally I think people that flagrantly foot fault is in fact the ones that are working on "gamesmanship," because they are (1) cheating and (2) rubbing it in your nose. So they should be called out on it.

...It's getting tedious to continue this debate.


...At this point I've provided the official ITF rules (officiated), the USTA opinion (non-officated), the USHSTA rules (non-officated).

AMEN, we have a winner, proof in writing, thank you Oski 10's for doing the leg work. The issue became controversial when Serena Williams threatened to shove a tennis ball down the throat of the diminutive Asian woman linesperson at the USO and kill her with it. It was then that historic revisionism of the foot fault rule began. BTW, I've yet to hear an apology to the lines lady but I have seen numerous commercials by Serena and her sponsors making light of the very ugly incident.

Bartleby, does that red star you use for an icon mean you work for Macy's, or are you trying to help to drive their stock up?

Nice match, virtual handshake.

[Bartelby]

I quoted these same words many, many posts ago so you have revealed nothing other than the fact that you comment on things you have not examined and do not understand.

See my extensive comments on this passage that I will not repeat.

Originally Posted by Oski10s

I played on my high school team growing up in California in the 80s. Back then, it wasn't even a question of calling a foot fault, because it was a fault. I don't know at what juncture it has become a controversial topic? But I will quote the US High School Tennis Association rule on the subject:

"Foot Faults
A player may warn his opponent that the opponent has committed a flagrant foot fault. If the foot faulting continues, the play may attempt to locate an official. If no official is available, the player may call flagrant foot faults. Compliance with the foot fault rule is very much a function of the player's personal honor system."

http://www.ushsta.org/COACHES/PUBLIC...ennisRules.htm

Incidentally I think people that flagrantly foot fault is in fact the ones that are working on "gamesmanship," because they are (1) cheating and (2) rubbing it in your nose. So they should be called out on it. If it gives no advantage (as you've suggested previously), then just step back a couple of inches. But if you insist on cheating, that's your own personal [dis-]honor system.

It's getting tedious to continue this debate. At this point I've provided the official ITF rules (officiated), the USTA opinion (non-officated), the USHSTA rules (non-officated).

[cneblett]

I took almost 20 years off and missed when it became ok to foot fault, because it does appear a lot of people do it repeatedly