Calling footfaults is important

[Bartelby]

Flagrant means, in this instance, that the majority of foot faults will not be called.

Originally Posted by Oski10s

Australia and the USA, apparently two countries without a common language.

[andfor]

Sweating the small stuff.

[sureshs]

Suppose you are playing a man who unfortunately has Alzheimers. He cannot remember the score from point to point and even if you put up the score on the net post, he forgets to look at it.

Is it OK to cheat and always make the score favorable to yourself? After all, he cannot reliably argue with you even if he suspects you are cheating. Since he cannot prove it because his memory is medically certified as unreliable, it is OK to cheat, correct?

[Bartelby]

Apparently its also a rule of the USTA that the server only calls the score loudly enough to be heard from the other side of the court, so if you don't or can't you are already 'cheating'.

[johndagolfer]

Originally Posted by Oski10s

Australia and the USA, apparently two countries without a common language.

I actually think questioning the definition flagrant, especially in an unofficiated match, has some merit.

I totally agree with all of you who say that FF is breaking the rules. But in a match with no one watching the line how can someone possibly call a foot fault that is an inch onto the baseline? How can a returner who is supposed to be watching the ball make a determination of such a minute margin. Without an official I would say that he can't. Even a net man would have trouble seeing such a small misstep.

This brings us to the definition of flagrant. I think that after all other avenues have been exhausted that an opponent can only call a foot fault if it is so obvious that there cannot be any question that it was anything other than a foot fault.

This all being said, my question is what is the smallest margin that any of you have seen being called in an unofficiated match?

I myself, have seen, in a high school match, someone claiming to be able to see 2 inches of footfault. I personally thought this was crap.

[Oski10s]

Originally Posted by johndagolfer

I actually think questioning the definition flagrant, especially in an unofficiated match, has some merit.

I was being tongue in cheek. It's the relentlessness of his remarks through these pages and failure to consider the root issue of why FF is wrong, instead of insisting that it can't be enforced.

Originally Posted by johndagolfer

I totally agree with all of you who say that FF is breaking the rules. But in a match with no one watching the line how can someone possibly call a foot fault that is an inch onto the baseline? How can a returner who is supposed to be watching the ball make a determination of such a minute margin. Without an official I would say that he can't. Even a net man would have trouble seeing such a small misstep.

Have you ever had a ball that hit the opposite base line being called out when you knew was in? How can you, from the opposite side of the court, see the ball hit the line while traveling at a fast pace away from you and at that distance? If someone is hooking you (cheating), are you supposed to just keep taking it? So why accept someone that keeps foot faulting?

Otherwise I agree with you that it should be obvious. When I played HS tennis it was a rare occasion that a foot fault was called, but there was never an issue with the opposing player. They knew they dragged their feet into the court. Everyone was conscientious about it, just as people don't touch the net while the ball is in play, or catch the ball before it bounces out.

I now play in a league with about 30 guys. I've not encountered anyone that "flagrantly" disregards this rule. Everybody tries to stay behind the line and thus no foot faults have been called in my experience. It's really that easy.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Oski10s

I can care less if you want to hit tennis balls against your garage door or serve from the net. But you are in the "Competitive Tennis Talk > Adult League & Tournament Talk" part of Talk Tennis, where ostensibly people are playing tennis competitively.

You are the one that used the example of people calling footfaults who want to play "College and beyond" and I think thats exactly right. For anyone who wants to play college and beyond they they absolutely should call footfaults every time they see one when playing against friends because those friends can work with their coach to correct the behavior. For people playing league tennis as a hobby- I'd rather watch the ball and return serve rather than watching someone's feet and hoping that they touch the line to win the point without having to play tennis.

[johndagolfer]

[quote=Oski10s;7056934]I was being tongue in cheek. It's the relentlessness of his remarks through these pages and failure to consider the root issue of why FF is wrong, instead of insisting that it can't be enforced.



Have you ever had a ball that hit the opposite base line being called out when you knew was in? How can you, from the opposite side of the court, see the ball hit the line while traveling at a fast pace away from you and at that distance? If someone is hooking you (cheating), are you supposed to just keep taking it? So why accept someone that keeps foot faulting?

There is a difference between the two things here. That is focus. As a returner you're not focused, at least you're not supposed to be, on an inch or two of foot fault.

The "hooking" example is a prime reason why you cannot call a foot fault unless it's "flagrant" or extremely obvious. There are linesmen whose job it is to stare and the line and miss calls. That makes me thinks its even more impossible for someone standing at the opposite end of the court to call a foot fault that occurred by an inch or two.

Acceptance has to be a part of non officiated tennis. There are going to be a lot more incorrect calls than if there was an official around. I think this is why the definition of flagrant is important when it comes to this rule.

[Oski10s]

Originally Posted by spot

You are the one that used the example of people calling footfaults who want to play "College and beyond" and I think thats exactly right. For anyone who wants to play college and beyond they they absolutely should call footfaults every time they see one when playing against friends because those friends can work with their coach to correct the behavior. For people playing league tennis as a hobby- I'd rather watch the ball and return serve rather than watching someone's feet and hoping that they touch the line to win the point without having to play tennis.

This is what I wrote:

"Those that have played, or are playing, competitive tennis (juniors, high school, college, and beyond) have all trained not to foot fault, because they'd be called on it during a match. It's actually the weekend hacks that have never played competitive tennis that think it's no big deal and are so vocal about it around here."

I was merely making the observation that people that play competitively at any level appear to want to play by the rules. Those that play more recreationally appear not to care (as you've reiterated above).

If you don't want to lose the point without the other person having to return your serve, then just don't step on or over the line while you serve. Simple, right?

[Bartelby]

If you are waiting to see the ball that the receiver hits back to you you are in a better position to assess the accuracy of hs call than you are with foot faults as you are supposed to be looking at the ball leave the hand, reach its maximum height. move forward and hit the ball.

If the ball is going to bounce close to a line everyone is looking for the bounce. A server can only know for sure that he starts from behind the line. A receiver is looking to receive. So no one is looking at the line on a ff.

A foot fault does not lose a point, but a bad line call does and the only respite you get from bad line calls is to call an official?

Originally Posted by Oski10s

Have you ever had a ball that hit the opposite base line being called out when you knew was in? How can you, from the opposite side of the court, see the ball hit the line while traveling at a fast pace away from you and at that distance? If someone is hooking you (cheating), are you supposed to just keep taking it? So why accept someone that keeps foot faulting?

[johndagolfer]

Originally Posted by spot

You are the one that used the example of people calling footfaults who want to play "College and beyond" and I think thats exactly right. For anyone who wants to play college and beyond they they absolutely should call footfaults every time they see one when playing against friends because those friends can work with their coach to correct the behavior. For people playing league tennis as a hobby- I'd rather watch the ball and return serve rather than watching someone's feet and hoping that they touch the line to win the point without having to play tennis.

Having seen plenty of college matches I totally agree. This level and beyond you will not be getting away with FFing. I've seen some chair umps who must have super eyes calling foot faults that are just barely touching the line.

[Bartelby]

If people have had insufficient training then their non-compliance with the FF rule is a deficiency that can only be rectificed by further training, so play at a level where everyone is sufficiently trained and you won't get flagrant ff.

Getting called doesn't train you, training does.

Getting called after training means you're cheating.

Getting called due to insufficient training means you need training.

Originally Posted by Oski10s

This is what I wrote:

"Those that have played, or are playing, competitive tennis (juniors, high school, college, and beyond) have all trained not to foot fault, because they'd be called on it during a match. It's actually the weekend hacks that have never played competitive tennis that think it's no big deal and are so vocal about it around here."

I was merely making the observation that people that play competitively at any level appear to want to play by the rules. Those that play more recreationally appear not to care (as you've reiterated above).

If you don't want to lose the point without the other person having to return your serve, then just don't step on or over the line while you serve. Simple, right?

[Oski10s]

Originally Posted by Bartelby

A receiver is looking to receive. So no one is looking at the line on a ff.

Right, this is why in reality when a FF is called during the matches I've seen without an official, it was in fact pretty flagrant. The server was either already stepping on the line (obviously) before starting the serve or if they drag their foot into the court during the serve. Otherwise everybody was focused on the return.

Originally Posted by Bartelby

If people have had insufficient training then their non-compliance with the FF rule is a deficiency that can only be rectificed by further training, so play at a level where everyone is sufficiently trained and you won't get flagrant ff.

I agree with this Bartelby. But I believe the motivation comes with losing points from being called for foot faulting. Without enforcement, people lack the impetus and drive to change and improve.

[andfor]

Foot faulting is against the rules?

[Bartelby]

A distinction always needs an observer.

Originally Posted by andfor

Foot faulting is against the rules?

[rafafan20]

Guy I played today was foot faulting so bad it was brutal, he wasn't a very good player though so I let it slide...

[yourmailman]

I played a doubles match in a league in which one of our opponents was flagrantly foot faulting on every serve. According to the rules, we informed him and he continued to serve with one foot totally inside the court (by at least a foot) and the other heel on the line. We once again informed him that he was foot faulting. His response was "you can't call that because it's on our side of the court" (sound familiar?).

Before his next service game, we brought out a league official as indicated by the rules. His response was to claim a time violation on us! The official informed him that this was not the case and stayed to watch his serve. His first serve was so flagrant of a foot fault that he was called on it before he even struck the ball. Second serve ... netted. The official continued to watch as he struggled to serve without foot faulting and lost the game.

On my first serve of the next game, he called a foot fault on me, even though I started well behind the line and did not even come close to the line. He didn't even attempt to return the serve.

The funny thing is, the official had moved off after his service game, but had come back, unobserved, during the changeover and seen the serve. They awarded us the point. Then they stayed for the duration of the match. This infuriated him and he began hitting at us as hard as he could. All we had to do from that point on was hit it to him, get out of the way and watch his ball land well out, or hit the fence.

At the end of the match, he refused to shake hands (his partner did, which drew his ire as well). He was proclaiming to anyone that would listen that we won the match via gamesmanship, not our skills.

I know I followed the rules, and don't consider it gamesmanship to insist that both teams play by the same rules.

Foot faulting does matter, because it is against the rules!

[Bartelby]

You followed the rules to enforce the rule, whereas the whole premise of this thread was that the receiver should foot fault immediately in order to gain an advantage.

The fact that he started in front of the baseline would indeed constitute a flagrant fault and would be easily noticed by a doubles partner.

Moreover, he violated the rules by calling a foot fault immediately (and in bad faith) which is precisely what most people were recommending around here before they were urged to read the rules.

Heel not heal.

Originally Posted by yourmailman

I played a doubles match in a league in which one of our opponents was flagrantly foot faulting on every serve. According to the rules, we informed him and he continued to serve with one foot totally inside the court (by at least a foot) and the other heal on the line. We once again informed him that he was foot faulting. His response was "you can't call that because it's on our side of the court" (sound familiar?).

Before his next service game, we brought out a league official as indicated by the rules. His response was to claim a time violation on us! The official informed him that this was not the case and stayed to watch his serve. His first serve was so flagrant of a foot fault that he was called on it before he even struck the ball. Second serve ... netted. The official continued to watch as he struggled to serve without foot faulting and lost the game.

On my first serve of the next game, he called a foot fault on me, even though I started well behind the line and did not even come close to the line. He didn't even attempt to return the serve.

The funny thing is, the official had moved off after his service game, but had come back, unobserved, during the changeover and seen the serve. They awarded us the point. Then they stayed for the duration of the match. This infuriated him and he began hitting at us as hard as he could. All we had to do from that point on was hit it to him, get out of the way and watch his ball land well out, or hit the fence.

At the end of the match, he refused to shake hands (his partner did, which drew his ire as well). He was proclaiming to anyone that would listen that we won the match via gamesmanship, not our skills.

I know I followed the rules, and don't consider it gamesmanship to insist that both teams play by the same rules.

Foot faulting does matter, because it is against the rules!

[rafafan20]

People are insane... follow the rules, the only people that should be mad are the ones playing the cheater, not the guy who gets called out on it

[Bartelby]

A rule requires an observer; and an observer needs to be impartial.

That's the problem with non-officiated tennis; all the observers are partisan.

Originally Posted by rafafan20

People are insane... follow the rules, the only people that should be mad are the ones playing the cheater, not the guy who gets called out on it