Calling footfaults is important

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by Bartelby

A rule requires an observer; and an observer needs to be impartial.

That's the problem with non-officiated tennis; all the observers are partisan.

That's where that honor/honour business comes in, the code/rules require all players help with the calls--even those on the OTHER SIDE OF THE NET! This goes contrary to Barltby's assertion that you can't call things on the other side of the net according to some obscure tennis association on the other side of the equater where the bath water goes down the drain in the opposite direction.

Often the player who hits the ball down the line has a better view of whether it was in or out or on the line, then his opponent who was not doing such a great job of covering that DTL shot. This is demonstrated by the better view of the serve to the tee that the server has although in rec play recievers aren't aware of this fact and never ask the server how he saw that serve.

I've often called a point against myself because I had a better view of it--and in this day and age of moral relativism its probably seen as rather strange by the opposition--but those are the rules in unofficiated matches. And that occurs on rare occasions in OFFICIATED matches by PROS even on tv who concede a point to opponents when even the officials didn't see it right.

Sports don't make character they reveal it. When I play against recx players and there's a pause in deciding a call DTL that I clearly had a better angle to view, I know not to expect too much in the honor/honour department from them or in the brains department either. I'll be kiddingly saying: "Ask me, ask me!", and they never do.

They're the same ones who don't bring a new can of balls to the match, don't want to warm-up properly, don't chat on the 90 second changeovers, don't stick around to have a beer afterwards and watch some real tennis on the tv in the players lounge--the're off to a tee time, or the all you can eat buffet.

So, if the rules say it's up to all PLAYERS to HELP with the calls, that allows for calling foot faults on opponents after due warning. FLAGRANT is in the eye of the beholder--some players HAVE better vision then others--this is proven to me everytime I play rec--opponents and partners make bad calls for and against themselves (mostly for though). This is a product of poor vision/VISION, whether due to poor eyesight or poor mental VISION, as a by-product of their blurry world view--which came first the chicken or the egg?

Barltby is going to the mat with this and will say anything at this point to symantically obfuscate the issue. Maybe he does't work at macys as his red star icon is symbolic of. I'm beginning to think he is a publicly paid defense attorney--only one of those could come up with the verbal gymnastics from an alternative universe to claim that black is white--how do you spell "is"?

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by yourmailman

...The funny thing is, the official had moved off after his service game, but had come back, unobserved, during the changeover and seen the serve. They awarded us the point. Then they stayed for the duration of the match. This infuriated him and he began hitting at us as hard as he could. All we had to do from that point on was hit it to him, get out of the way and watch his ball land well out, or hit the fence.

...Foot faulting does matter, because it is against the rules!

Your incident reminds me of a similar one I observed at playoffs on the court next door to me. The perp became irate at the official, argued with him, told him ff'ing was only a "technical" vilolation (he is an attorney BTW) and proceded to blow the match and further playoff hopes for his teammates.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Oski10s

This is what I wrote:

"Those that have played, or are playing, competitive tennis (juniors, high school, college, and beyond) have all trained not to foot fault, because they'd be called on it during a match. It's actually the weekend hacks that have never played competitive tennis that think it's no big deal and are so vocal about it around here."

I was merely making the observation that people that play competitively at any level appear to want to play by the rules. Those that play more recreationally appear not to care (as you've reiterated above).

I suppose the difference is that I realize that under the 5.0 level we are all mediocre tennis players who are playing tennis recreationally. For all of us it is a hobby, even the players who once played "college and beyond". If someone is playing in college then absolutely they should care about footfaults. If someone is playing satellites then absolutely care about footfaults. If someone is playing a cash tournament same thing. But for me in USTA you just focus on returning serve- and if at some point there is a roving umpire then they can call my opponent for a footfault for me.

Once again it comes down to whether you would rather win the point by cracking a return or whether you would rather win the point by watching the server's feet and hoping that they touch the line. I take time to play league tennis because I want to play tennis so I'm just going to go ahead and return the serve. If you instead enjoy hoping someone's foot touches the line then by all means go for it- I'm just glad you aren't on my team.

[Bartelby]

The USTA rules only allow the receiver to call flagrant ff after all alternative avenues have failed, including recourse to the officials who should be the ones to administer a penalty.

Its clear that this is what the rules intend, not you misinterpretation. The rules are doing their best to avoid the situation where the receiver imposes a penalty for good reasons.

The point about honour refers in this instance to the integrity of the server not the officiousness of the receiver.

If there is anything that shows better the fact that people who want to call ff ad libitum are not to be trusted its this post.

I am defending the rules as they are written. You are the fundamentalist who wants to impose your God-ordained understanding of the rules.

Originally Posted by tennis tom

That's where that honor/honour business comes in, the code/rules require all players help with the calls--even those on the OTHER SIDE OF THE NET! This goes contrary to Barltby's assertion that you can't call things on the other side of the net according to some obscure tennis association on the other side of the equater where the bath water goes down the drain in the opposite direction.

Often the player who hits the ball down the line has a better view of whether it was in or out or on the line, then his opponent who was not doing such a great job of covering that DTL shot. This is demonstrated by the better view of the serve to the tee that the server has although in rec play recievers aren't aware of this fact and never ask the server how he saw that serve.

I've often called a point against myself because I had a better view of it--and in this day and age of moral relativism its probably seen as rather strange by the opposition--but those are the rules in unofficiated matches. And that occurs on rare occasions in OFFICIATED matches by PROS even on tv who concede a point to opponents when even the officials didn't see it right.

Sports don't make character they reveal it. When I play against recx players and there's a pause in deciding a call DTL that I clearly had a better angle to view, I know not to expect too much in the honor/honour department from them or in the brains department either. I'll be kiddingly saying: "Ask me, ask me!", and they never do.

They're the same ones who don't bring a new can of balls to the match, don't want to warm-up properly, don't chat on the 90 second changeovers, don't stick around to have a beer afterwards and watch some real tennis on the tv in the players lounge--the're off to a tee time, or the all you can eat buffet.

So, if the rules say it's up to all PLAYERS to HELP with the calls, that allows for calling foot faults on opponents after due warning. FLAGRANT is in the eye of the beholder--some players HAVE better vision then others--this is proven to me everytime I play rec--opponents and partners make bad calls for and against themselves (mostly for though). This is a product of poor vision/VISION, whether due to poor eyesight or poor mental VISION, as a by-product of their blurry world view--which came first the chicken or the egg?

Barltby is going to the mat with this and will say anything at this point to symantically obfuscate the issue. Maybe he does't work at macys as his red star icon is symbolic of. I'm beginning to think he is a publicly paid defense attorney--only one of those could come up with the verbal gymnastics from an alternative universe to claim that black is white--how do you spell "is"?

[Bartelby]

Even the word 'perp' demonstrates your infantile fascination at looking at people as if they were characters from an american cop show.

Originally Posted by tennis tom

Your incident reminds me of a similar one I observed at playoffs on the court next door to me. The perp became irate at the official, argued with him, told him ff'ing was only a "technical" vilolation (he is an attorney BTW) and proceded to blow the match and further playoff hopes for his teammates.

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by Bartelby

...including recourse to the officials who should be the ones to administer a penalty.

...The rules are doing their best to avoid the situation where the receiver imposes a penalty for good reasons.

...You are the fundamentalist who wants to impose your God-ordained understanding of the rules.

Originally Posted by Bartelby

Even the word 'perp' demonstrates your infantile fascination at looking at people as if they were characters from an American cop show.

"SHOULD" and SHALL are not the same.

What are those "good reasons"?

Bart, your agenda slip is showing, I'm not very religious at all and don't think the USTA is God, I've even read books by Madelyn Murray O'Hair.

I do appreciate your capitalizing "American cop show"--proving this thread has had some redeeming virtues after all. I do enjoy watching "COPS" on the telly, it's probably one of the only "reality" shows that has any reality to it. I do enjoy acting like a kid on the tennis courts.

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by Bartelby

...including recourse to the officials who should be the ones to administer a penalty.

...The rules are doing their best to avoid the situation where the receiver imposes a penalty for good reasons.

...You are the fundamentalist who wants to impose your God-ordained understanding of the rules.

Originally Posted by Bartelby

Even the word 'perp' demonstrates your infantile fascination at looking at people as if they were characters from an American cop show.

"SHOULD" and SHALL are not the same.

What are those "good reasons"?

Bart, your agenda slip is showing, I'm not very religious at all and don't think the USTA is God, I've even read books by Madalyn Murray O'hare.

I do appreciate your capitalizing "American cop show"--proving this thread has had some redeeming virtues after all. I do enjoy watching "COPS" on the telly, it's probably one of the only "reality" shows that has any reality to it. I do enjoy acting like a kid on the tennis courts.

[Bartelby]

The good reasons are to prevent little john birchers like youself goosetepping their way around the court to the tune of star spangled banner.

Originally Posted by tennis tom

"SHOULD" and SHALL are not the same.

What are those "good reasons"?

Bart, your agenda slip is showing, I'm not very religious at all and don't think the USTA is God, I've even read books by Madalyn Murray O'hare.

I do appreciate your capitalizing "American cop show"--proving this thread has had some redeeming virtues after all. I do enjoy watching "COPS" on the telly, it's probably one of the only "reality" shows that has any reality to it. I do enjoy acting like a kid on the tennis courts.

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by Bartelby

The good reasons are to prevent little john birchers like youself goosetepping their way around the court to the tune of star spangled banner.

Wow, john birch society, that's so 50's/60's, you are old school! RIGHT ON!

[Bartelby]

You're the one who started dribbling patriotic anti-communism, tommy, and that's the locus classicus for that genre.

Originally Posted by tennis tom

Wow, john birch society, that's so 50's/60's, you are old school! RIGHT ON!

[Oski10s]

Originally Posted by spot

Once again it comes down to whether you would rather win the point by cracking a return or whether you would rather win the point by watching the server's feet and hoping that they touch the line. I take time to play league tennis because I want to play tennis so I'm just going to go ahead and return the serve. If you instead enjoy hoping someone's foot touches the line then by all means go for it- I'm just glad you aren't on my team.

Okay, by your assertion then you probably don't call balls out because you'd rather beat the opponent with your return than win the point by watching the ball go out? Why would you hope someone's ball goes out instead of beating them exclusively with winners?

You wouldn't be playing on my team either, enjoy the bush leagues.

[Bartelby]

A foot fault is a technical judgement in relation to lines both real and imaginary.

A line call is a judgement made in real time with regard to a real line by the person closest to that line.

Any and all quoted rules acknowledge this difference so there is no point of comparison.

[andfor]

Focus on foot faults real or perceived, not tennis.

[maverick1981]

man you guys are intense.

a few things I will note:

1. we ARE in the competitive tennis talk, and as a new member, i thought i was talking about competitive tennis & the guys & girls who play that way (such as following rules and playing under them)

2. if you really are some weekend hack, theres nothing wrong with that, thats your stone to grind

3. if you ARE a weekend hack, maybe taking some lessons will help you play the game the right way, ie - following real rules, not only for the benefit of the other people you play with, but for yourself

4. Foot faults are a tiny piece of the weekend-hack puzzle, but a very important piece. I dont think anyone here could say that when anticipating a serve return and getting ready to demolish your odd, footfaulted, quircky spasm of a motion, that we are only watching your feet. Quite the contrary, I am trying to watch the ball and anticipate my moves, that ball being your toss that sometimes winds up 10 feet away from you - behind you - or bouncing nearly 1/2 way to the service line. When you hit the ball a foot or so in front of the service line or to the opposite side of the T, after all the above has happened, that is not tennis.

5. reiterating all the above, under competitive tennis talk & adult/tournament talk...I am certainly not that guy calling a foot fault lol...I cant think in any instance of my tennis life having ever called one. That said, I have never witnessed such a lack of instruction with rules or gameplay. Ill beat you anyways, and I dont need a foot fault call to massage the score.

[andfor]

I'd rather bust you for a foot-fault then win the match. That makes me feel good.

[Bartelby]

The problem arises in competitive tennis where there is no official. Some people think the receiver can police foot faults the way they do lines, but the rules don't comply with their wishes.

[maverick1981]

If i didnt get a good look at the ball...i give the opponent the point. If i cant make a call on my side of the net, its not a question for me; your point or its to your advantage. I only expect the same. Expecting a hacker or even a solid player to call their own FF...you guys have to be kidding me.

[spot]

Originally Posted by Oski10s

Okay, by your assertion then you probably don't call balls out because you'd rather beat the opponent with your return than win the point by watching the ball go out?

In an unofficiated match in order to call footfaults I have to choose between watching the ball so I can return the serve or watching my opponents feet and hoping that they touch the line. I can call a ball out just by watching it like I normally would. I'll always pick playing tennis and I'll leave it to officials to call footfaults.

enjoy the bush leagues.

Unless you play in college, satellites, or cash tournaments then you play in the bush leagues too- you simply are oblivious to it.

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by Bartelby

You're the one who started dribbling patriotic anti-communism, tommy, and that's the locus classicus for that genre.

So you admit it, your shining red star in your icon is there in order to manipulate macy's stock higher. "Locus classicus", where did you learn to talk like that, from Saul Alinsky at North Western?

[sureshs]

Should we setup a hotline which people can call confidentially and report FFs?