3.5 Serve and Volley?

[beernutz]

Originally Posted by tennismonkey

i wasn't sure if this video was indicative of most ladies dubs. in this video anyway the lob seems to be devastating and volleys while mostly consistent - lack pace and placement. lots of volleys hit but very few volley winners or volleys that forced errors.

That video looked a lot like the 3.5 and 4.0 women's doubles I see regularly at my club. I label it as passive doubles as it is rare that all four ladies are at or inside the service line during the point. Instead the entire point is often played one up and one back on each side and less than half of the points are ended with a volley and very few are ended with an overhead.

Contrast that to the better men's 3.5 doubles teams and just about any men's 4.0 doubles I've played where within one to three shots all four players have moved to or inside the service line, there are frequent poaching attempts, and there is a lot of back-and-forth volleying and half-volleying going on with the occasional offensive or defensive lob thrown in.

[Nellie]

I think it depends on your skill set. I can certainly see a 3.5 with weaker groundstrokes wanting to serve and volley. The real problem with serve and volley is that you have to be in good shape and most 3.5 rec men aren't.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by beernutz

That video looked a lot like the 3.5 and 4.0 women's doubles I see regularly at my club. I label it as passive doubles as it is rare that all four ladies are at or inside the service line during the point. Instead the entire point is often played one up and one back on each side and less than half of the points are ended with a volley and very few are ended with an overhead.

The video looked like the low end of ladies 4.0. I say that because you can't just lob and moonball at the higher end. If the server moves in and takes those as volleys or overheads or swinging volleys, the moonballing will stop.

Those are high 4.0 strokes, IME.

Regarding 3.5 men S&V . . . I played 7.5 mixed last night. There were four 3.5 guys on Doubles Two and Three. None of these men S&V. One didn't move at all. One tended to back up and bounce everything. The other two just played groundstrokes until they got something short. Then they would either smack it or hit deep and come to net.

My 4.0 female opponent came to net consistently, and it is clear that is her style of play.

[Drop Snot]

I cleaned up in my 3.5 men's singles flex league this fall with serve and volley. At the 3.5 level people just aren't used to playing against S/V and freak out as soon as you approach the net. I could have easily won half the points blind folded because they were just hitting the ball into the net as soon as I got up there.
Also you don't need a big serve to S/V at 3.5. Just good placement and variety. I have a relatively slow serve and no one was cramming it down my throat.

[TimeToPlaySets]

At 3.0-3.5, the main frustration I have with S&V (or just coming to the net in general) is when the opponent constantly lobs you successfully. Then, you look like a moron repeatedly. It is also VERY annoying to spend all that energy getting to the net only to sprint back chasing some annoying lob.

The point is, you really need to choose your opportunities well. This is what I am trying to develop. Go in when you know its a deep ball to their backhand. They aren't going to lob you there. Easy shot to their forehand? Don't go in to the net, idiot. They will lob you.

I also sometimes wait too long. You need to be charging the net as soon as you hit the ball, and can't wait for visual confirmation. ie: By the time you see that it's a deep shot that's good to go in on, it's too late to go in. This needs to be a 6th sense, knowing where the ball will go the second you hit it.

[Cindysphinx]

If you getting lobbed repeatedly, that probably means you are coming to net like a freight train.

You are supposed to split step when the opponent hits, which rebalances you so you can go in any direction. That allows you to take the lob out of the air as an approach volley. A lot of people are hell bent on avoiding hitting a low approach volley, so they come in too fast and too far.

Lots of people can lob with their BH; I know I can. Rather than avoid the BH, better is to develop a good volley you can execute from every place on the court, IMHO.

[TimeToPlaySets]

So, you're saying I need to be slower in getting to the net???

[Cindysphinx]

I'm saying you need to be balanced and ready to go in any direction when your opponent is hitting. If it is a lob and you are at about the service line, you can cross and take that ball in the air. If it is a drive, you continue forward to and through your volley.

I haven't seen you play, of course. I am thinking primarily of a lady I know who gets burned by the lob when she S&V. Her issue is she is determined to get as close to the net as humanly possible. If the opponent hits a drive, she is all over it. If it is a lob, it is a winner because she has to stop all that excess forward momentum.

I believe the hair-on-fire sprint to the net results from people lacking confidence in their first volley from deeper in the court. If you get good at that volley, there's no need to come in so aggressively that you are vulnerable to the lob. IMHO.

[TimeToPlaySets]

Yea, but you're also advocating being in "no man's land" which is the first thing you learn not to do in tennis. I recall being told by my coach to let them lob you. It's a low % shot and if they get it, good for them, but you'll win way more points going to the net than losing via a lob. So, if that's true, my problem is going in on the wrong shots, not being out of position to play the lob. I am saying if you do it right, they can not hit a deep lob. Like an easy shot to their forehand, don't go it. Massively topspin and deep to their back hand? Let them lob away.

[dcdoorknob]

Originally Posted by TimeToPlaySets

Yea, but you're also advocating being in "no man's land" which is the first thing you learn not to do in tennis. I recall being told by my coach to let them lob you. It's a low % shot and if they get it, good for them, but you'll win way more points going to the net than losing via a lob. So, if that's true, my problem is going in on the wrong shots, not being out of position to play the lob. I am saying if you do it right, they can not hit a deep lob. Like an easy shot to their forehand, don't go it. Massively topspin and deep to their back hand? Let them lob away.

I tend to agree with this. If I'm getting consistently beat by lobs when I try to come in, I'm going to look to the quality of my approach shots before anything else. I also think that if my approach shot is mediocre enough to be easy to place lobs consistently well, it's probably would also not be too difficult to dump right at my feet if I'm split stepping on the service line. Hitting volleys of my shoestrings from the service line is obviously not a great position to be in either.

I'm no S&V expert by any stretch either though.

[schmke]

Originally Posted by TimeToPlaySets

Yea, but you're also advocating being in "no man's land" which is the first thing you learn not to do in tennis. I recall being told by my coach to let them lob you. It's a low % shot and if they get it, good for them, but you'll win way more points going to the net than losing via a lob. So, if that's true, my problem is going in on the wrong shots, not being out of position to play the lob. I am saying if you do it right, they can not hit a deep lob. Like an easy shot to their forehand, don't go it. Massively topspin and deep to their back hand? Let them lob away.

There are a few factors here.

First, if you are playing at 3.0 to 3.5 and coming in on balls that your opponent can hit good lobs off of, you probably aren't hitting good approach shots or coming in on the right balls.

Second, you do need to play your opponent, not just the textbook. Yes, you don't want to get stuck in no-mans land but if your opponents tendency is to lob whenever you come in, you need to adjust your game to not crash the net quite as hard. The split-step Cindy mentions is key here as regardless of where you are on the court, this is essential to being in the right position and balance to hit the next shot. Depending on where you hit your approach from and how hard, you may very well be split stepping in no-mans land and there is nothing wrong with that.

Last, being an attacking player requires that you become adept at dealing with low volleys and half volleys. Unless you come to net only on virtual winners, you are going to have to hit these shot periodically and improving this area of your game is important to transitioning from the backcourt to the net.

[TimeToPlaySets]

If your approach shot is good, then their lob attempt will simply come back as an easy "shallow meatball" than you slam away.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by TimeToPlaySets

Yea, but you're also advocating being in "no man's land" which is the first thing you learn not to do in tennis. I recall being told by my coach to let them lob you. It's a low % shot and if they get it, good for them, but you'll win way more points going to the net than losing via a lob. So, if that's true, my problem is going in on the wrong shots, not being out of position to play the lob. I am saying if you do it right, they can not hit a deep lob. Like an easy shot to their forehand, don't go it. Massively topspin and deep to their back hand? Let them lob away.

I agree with Schemke, who phrased things well.

See, a lot of people S&V and believe they must get to a certain spot on the court. If they split step behind the service line, they believe they are not doing it right.

Not true, IME. You split when your opponent is about to hit, regardless of where you are on the court. If you only get two steps inside the baseline, that is where you split. You shouldn't be running forward full speed while your opponent is hitting.

That said, the place where you split does NOT mean that this is where you must make contact. Once you see the return is a drive, you can keep moving forward or sideways or whatever you need to do to reach/play the ball.

Should you "let them lob you"? It depends on how good they are at it. I'm a lobber, big time. I can lob off of almost any shot from any place on the court, FH or BH. The exception is I cannot lob off of a good drop shot or a nasty slice.

I tell you this because I do face people who seem to spend a lot of energy figuring that if they just their approaches harder or deeper or better that they can stop me from lobbing. I also face people who have been told not to worry about the lob, so they go down in flames as lob after lob goes over their heads. IMHO, that is not the right idea. The idea is that you simply need to cover the lob. That doesn't mean "change everything you do and play like grandma." It means take extra care to be well-balanced and do your split so you can take that lob as an approach volley without bouncing it.

When I have an opponent who can actually defend my lobbing by crossing behind their partner, that will make me stop lobbing for the remainder of the match.

[stapletonj]

the approach shot (or return of serve in chip-n-charge) is the key. It is also dependent on what level you are playing at. How hard you hit the ball is not really nearly as important as where and how.

A good approach shot is 3 things.

a. deep
b. near a sideline (esp in singles)
c. low

at 3.0, you will win, if your approach shot has 1 of these three things. none? you will most likely lose the point.

at 3.5, you will win, if your approach shot has 2 of these things. One? you will most likely lose the point.

at 4.0, you will win if your approach shot has all 3 of these things. Two? you will most likely lose the point.

Probably an oversimplification, but a pretty good rule of thumb.

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by stapletonj

A good approach shot is 3 things.

a. deep
b. near a sideline (esp in singles)
c. low

To add to this, it definitely needs to be deep, as close to the baseline as you can get it.

It doesn't have to be near a sideline, but should be down the line, so as not to open up angles for your opponent.

Hit low, with slice using the continental grip, the same grip used to serve and volley. This is so the ball will stay low, forcing your opponent to hit up, so you can angle it off for a winner.

Now hit a million practice balls.

[3fees]

Not too many do this, s & v its a good thing to employ, variety is the spice of life , if you can put the volley away, if not slight volley up the middle(takes away the angle, top spin lob ect), just expect the ball to becoming right at ya,,,lol,, this is the professional way to serve and volley all else is greasy kid stuff, with the middle volley "control" is a premium,, watch Rod Laver do it, the best serve and volley artist to date.

[mib]

Originally Posted by stapletonj

the approach shot (or return of serve in chip-n-charge) is the key. It is also dependent on what level you are playing at. How hard you hit the ball is not really nearly as important as where and how.

A good approach shot is 3 things.

a. deep
b. near a sideline (esp in singles)
c. low

at 3.0, you will win, if your approach shot has 1 of these three things. none? you will most likely lose the point.

at 3.5, you will win, if your approach shot has 2 of these things. One? you will most likely lose the point.

at 4.0, you will win if your approach shot has all 3 of these things. Two? you will most likely lose the point.

Probably an oversimplification, but a pretty good rule of thumb.

If you hit deep you are in good shape even at 4.0.

[dizzlmcwizzl]

Originally Posted by mib

If you hit deep you are in good shape even at 4.0.

Yea ... anything near the baseline that does not sit up will put you in great shape. The biggest exception is when you approach cross court in singles.

But a deep, low skidding approach down the middle is murder on a baseliner trying to find an angle.

[mib]

Originally Posted by dizzlmcwizzl

Yea ... anything near the baseline that does not sit up will put you in great shape. The biggest exception is when you approach cross court in singles.

But a deep, low skidding approach down the middle is murder on a baseliner trying to find an angle.

Right, in singles things can be more tricky for a S&V player. Many people have pretty good passing shots, especially if the ball sits up a bit.

[texacali]

I thought in 3.5, perhaps S & V would be more effective because passing shots are not as consistent, especially if you have a pretty good serve and can hit the low approach. I am trying this out more to see if I can actually use it more. i know I am susceptible to lobs and 3.5 players seem pretty adept at hitting those.