Whats your top 10 of all time right now? - Page 76

Feather · 12-13-2012, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Nadal is 18-10 vs Federer, 8-2 in slams, 3-2 in slams off of clay (while 5-0 overall), 5-2 lifetime on outdoor hard courts, including 2-1 when peak Federer played 17-19 year old Nadal (and the only loss being a huge choke by 18 year old Nadal from 2 sets to 0 and 5-3 up). Head to head play is the absolute last place you want to go when comparing Federer to Nadal.

As for Federer in Djokovic if we declare Fedreer's prime as 2004-2007, and presume Djokovic's will end up being 2011-2014 or so, Federer was having mighty problems with and often losing to Djokovic in 08/09 when he was closer to his prime than Djokovic was. In fact their H2H from late 2007-end of 2009 was 4-4.

Don't start mentioning about choke. If we are to go that way, then Federer lost many matches due to that. In Rafa's biography, he himself said that Roger played well in 2006 or 2007 FO final but the pressure of winning all four majors got to him and he lost. NOTE : I was just quoting Rafa and I don't subscribe to that opinion.

Djokovic and Nadal benefitted a lot from the slowing down of surfaces and it hurt Roger the most. In Pete - Agassi rivalry Pete had the benefit of fast courts while Roger didn't have that. US Open and Wimbledon were slowed down. You saw what happened this year in Cincinnati when he bagelled the hard court king..

The thing is Roger lost two hard court matches each at Miami and AO, the slowest hard courts. Martina even said the AO is slower than clay courts. ATP is slowing down all surfaces, these homogenization helps Rafa and Djokovic a lot while playing Roger.

So Mr. Natural born Roger Federer hater, be objective for a change. I know its tough for you to do that. Just try !

abmk · 12-13-2012, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

abmk, I mentioned those players because all of them (and many more greats) were opponents of Laver. Laver had tougher competition than Federer had in his prime

except gonzalez was really wayyyyy past his best by the time he played laver at his prime ...... laver was also nearing the end of his prime when he played newk/roche ......

and rosewall had one of his worst years in 69 ( to a lesser extent in 67 ) , coincidence that laver had two of his best years then , I think not ....

so no, that argument of yours is a fail ....

roche is similar to safin in many aspects, both talented but massive underachievers and hampered by injuries ....

abmk · 12-13-2012, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feather

Don't start mentioning about choke. If we are to go that way, then Federer lost many matches due to that. In Rafa's biography, he himself said that Roger played well in 2006 or 2007 FO final but the pressure of winning all four majors got to him and he lost. NOTE : I was just quoting Rafa and I don't subscribe to that opinion.

Djokovic and Nadal benefitted a lot from the slowing down of surfaces and it hurt Roger the most. In Pete - Agassi rivalry Pete had the benefit of fast courts while Roger didn't have that. US Open and Wimbledon were slowed down. You saw what happened this year in Cincinnati when he bagelled the hard court king..

The thing is Roger lost two hard court matches each at Miami and AO, the slowest hard courts. Martina even said the AO is slower than clay courts. ATP is slowing down all surfaces, these homogenization helps Rafa and Djokovic a lot while playing Roger.

So Mr. Natural born Roger Federer hater, be objective for a change. I know its tough for you to do that. Just try !

yeah, this ...... enough said !

abmk · 12-13-2012, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Many of their matches were played when Federer was in his prime and Nadal and Djokovic not.

lol, the same goes the other way round ........

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

I doubt that a peak Federer was stronger or at least equal than 2011 Djoker.

based on what exactly ?

he lost to federer @ 2011 FO while playing darn well ..has only one FO final to federer's 5 (including a win )

federer's best on grass is easily better than djoker's ..... you are seriously nuts if you think otherwise ...

and even @ his very best, he had to save MPs vs federer who was playing very good, but not great tennis @ the USO .....

federer at his peak was clearly better than that ...( 5 titles to 1 title for djoker there is just another factor supporting that )

so on clay, fast HC and obviously grass, prime-prime federer is better ...

the only place where you could realistically argue, djoker is better prime to prime is slow HC ....

abmk · 12-13-2012, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Lobb

Not to be contradictory, but just whom did Federer beat in all these slams? The best players money could buy?
Rosewall and Hoad had to beat giants from round 1, no easy matches like in the early rounds of a modern slam.

yes, but there is this tiny little matter that federer did the very same @ the YECs , beating the best players from the starting, 6 times, and 5 of those occasions he was unbeaten .......

abmk · 12-13-2012, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1

Federer may very well be better than Nadal indoors but I do also wonder if a partial reason is that Nadal is worn out by the end of the year.

It's really not an excuse because Federer's style is so smooth that he's less worn out but I would be curious what would happen if they played an important indoor match let's say around May or June. Anyone check the record for Nadal and Federer indoors around the middle of the year? I doubt if they have played any matches around that time since few indoor matches are played nowadays. I can't check now because I have some work to take care of.

the part in bold seriously annoys me ......... is there an iota of doubt in your mind that federer is a better player indoors than nadal ??????? seriously ?

nadal in 2011 took a month off to rest before the YEC .. Result >> a tasty bagel and a whopping 3 games won in a match that finished in nearly an hour ...

at most, if held in the middle of the season, nadal may be somewhat more competitive, but he still wouldn't win any of those 4 matches ....... federer is plainly much better indoors ... it isn't close ....

Feather · 12-13-2012, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abmk

the part in bold seriously annoys me ......... is there an iota of doubt in your mind that federer is a better player indoors than nadal ??????? seriously ?

nadal in 2011 took a month off to rest before the YEC .. Result >> a tasty bagel and a whopping 3 games won in a match that finished in nearly an hour ...

at most, if held in the middle of the season, nadal may be somewhat more competitive, but he still wouldn't win any of those 4 matches ....... federer is plainly much better indoors ... it isn't close ....

This is also I don't like abmk

Imagine if you or I post like this:

Nadal may very well be better than Federer on clay but I do also wonder if that was because Federer was XYZ. XYZ could be any reason

Then you can have posters saying " Only in Planet TT Warehouse that ****s/*******s claim this. Fed fans are delusional. Fed fans are lovesick"

BobbyOne · 12-14-2012, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feather

If I hurt you, I am sorry about that..

Feather, Fine. Okay.

BobbyOne · 12-14-2012, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMF

No he doesn't. Rosewall won 8 slams(4 were from the amateur) while Federer won 17 modern slams. Rosewall won 15 pro majors but Federer won 6 WTFs. Overall, Fed's slams/WTFs have more value than all of Rosewall's 23 slams/pro majors combined.

TMF, If you count WTF, you also should count Rosewall's two WCT finals!

Thus Rosewall is still leading 25:23...

pc1 · 12-14-2012, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1

Federer may very well be better than Nadal indoors but I do also wonder if a partial reason is that Nadal is worn out by the end of the year. It's really not an excuse because Federer's style is so smooth that he's less worn out but I would be curious what would happen if they played an important indoor match let's say around May or June. Anyone check the record for Nadal and Federer indoors around the middle of the year? I doubt if they have played any matches around that time since few indoor matches are played nowadays. I can't check now because I have some work to take care of.

One think Federer does have in common with Rosewall is that both were ultra smooth strokers and moved very well with great footwork. I think that helps tremendously in prolonging a career because of the lesser wear and tear. Gonzalez was along those lines also. And all of these guys played a long time and accomplished a lot. I worry if Nadal can last with his style. Djokovic, while smoother imo than Nadal also plays a very grinding game and you also wonder if that will wear him down early.

Quote:

Originally Posted by abmk

the part in bold seriously annoys me ......... is there an iota of doubt in your mind that federer is a better player indoors than nadal ??????? seriously ?

nadal in 2011 took a month off to rest before the YEC .. Result >> a tasty bagel and a whopping 3 games won in a match that finished in nearly an hour ...

at most, if held in the middle of the season, nadal may be somewhat more competitive, but he still wouldn't win any of those 4 matches ....... federer is plainly much better indoors ... it isn't close ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feather

This is also I don't like abmk

Imagine if you or I post like this:

Nadal may very well be better than Federer on clay but I do also wonder if that was because Federer was XYZ. XYZ could be any reason

Then you can have posters saying " Only in Planet TT Warehouse that ****s/*******s claim this. Fed fans are delusional. Fed fans are lovesick"

But the thing is Feather I haven't really seen Nadal play Federer indoors except at the end of the year when he is worn. So that's why I put it that way. I assume Federer is better but I'm wondering if he's overwhelmingly better. This is just my thoughts on this and I really don't see why anyone should be annoyed. Can you deny Nadal's not at 100% often at the end of the year?

Nadal's record is 8-8 at the end of the year indoors. Is that really 100% Nadal? That's why I checked the stats. That's why I asked the question. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask. Was that a legit question to ask? I think so because of the record at the end of the year for Nadal. He was 0-3 one year at the WTF. The question was just asking what the actual difference in level of play indoors if both are healthy.

I also pointed out that Federer's style is so smooth that it takes very little out of him and that was good for him.

You guys are making too much out of nothing. I can't get over that you're annoyed by minor thing. Do I have to walk on eggshells every time I write anything about Federer?

Flash O'Groove · 12-14-2012, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1

But the thing is Feather I haven't really seen Nadal play Federer indoors except at the end of the year when he is worn. So that's why I put it that way. I assume Federer is better but I'm wondering if he's overwhelmingly better. This is just my thoughts on this and I really don't see why anyone should be annoyed. Can you deny Nadal's not at 100% often at the end of the year?

Nadal's record is 8-8 at the end of the year indoors. Is that really 100% Nadal? That's why I checked the stats. That's why I asked the question. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask. Was that a legit question to ask? I think so because of the record at the end of the year for Nadal. He was 0-3 one year at the WTF. The question was just asking what the actual difference in level of play indoors if both are healthy.

I also pointed out that Federer's style is so smooth that it takes very little out of him and that was good for him.

You guys are making too much out of nothing. I can't get over that you're annoyed by minor thing. Do I have to walk on eggshells every time I write anything about Federer?

The H2H is not the only thing which can help us assess who is better indoor. Federer seems to have more chance to win against his main rivals indoor than outdoor, while it is the contrary for Nadal (although he has a good resume too - 1 master 1000 titles, 2 master 1000 finals, 1 WTF finals, along two high quality semi against Fed).

pc1 · 12-14-2012, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flash O'Groove

The H2H is not the only thing which can help us assess who is better indoor. Federer seems to have more chance to win against his main rivals indoor than outdoor, while it is the contrary for Nadal (although he has a good resume too - 1 master 1000 titles, 2 master 1000 finals, 1 WTF finals, along two high quality semi against Fed).

Well I'm glad you told me. What are the exact stats for both when we compare both players indoors?

Edit-Just checked. It's very clear Federer has a far superior indoor record. And incidentally that's all I was asking. Who has the better record indoors and who is the better player when healthy? It's clear from the info that Federer is the clearly superior indoor player.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/P...erer.aspx?t=mr

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/P...adal.aspx?t=mr

So instead of getting so upset someone could have given me these facts and I would have accepted it and learned something. Yes I now believe Federer is the clearly better indoor player.

abmk · 12-14-2012, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1

Well I'm glad you told me. What are the exact stats for both when we compare both players indoors?

Edit-Just checked. It's very clear Federer has a far superior indoor record. And incidentally that's all I was asking. Who has the better record indoors and who is the better player when healthy? It's clear from the info that Federer is the clearly superior indoor player.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/P...erer.aspx?t=mr

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/P...adal.aspx?t=mr

So instead of getting so upset someone could have given me these facts and I would have accepted it and learned something. Yes I now believe Federer is the clearly better indoor player.

you follow tennis these days, right ?

anyone who follows tennis these days would/should have some idea about the records of the top 2 players of the generation on all surfaces ... I am not saying they should know all the details, just that they should have some idea .....

federer has been winning YEC after YEC and nadal has made only one final there ...

as you have now seen - and as those who've watched closely know, federer has won plenty more titles indoors - 20 to nadal's 1

federer's winning % is wayyy better - 80% to nadal's 64% ...its not in the same stratosphere .....

leaving aside the stats for a moment, isn't it wayyyy too obvious from their styles of play that federer's style of play translates far better onto indoor surfaces than nadal's ?

If you were someone whom I wasn't sure watched tennis these days or not, I would have given the stats .....but that isn't the case here ...

zagor · 12-14-2012, 06:33 AM

@Abmk

To be fair though, indoor season is not nearly what it used to be, they eliminated carpet and the only indoor masters tourney Paris is not taken seriously by the top players given how close it is to YEC, they mostly tank it in order to give their best effort at WTF.

That said, yeah Fed being better than Nadal indoors is as clear to me as Nadal being better on clay.

abmk · 12-14-2012, 06:46 AM

yeah, indoor season used to better earlier with more tournaments and faster surfaces....

regardless my point stands, anyone who follows tennis in recent times should be able to tell that federer is clearly superior to nadal indoors ....

pc1 · 12-14-2012, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abmk

you follow tennis these days, right ?

anyone who follows tennis these days would/should have some idea about the records of the top 2 players of the generation on all surfaces ... I am not saying they should know all the details, just that they should have some idea .....

federer has been winning YEC after YEC and nadal has made only one final there ...

as you have now seen - and as those who've watched closely know, federer has won plenty more titles indoors - 20 to nadal's 1

federer's winning % is wayyy better - 80% to nadal's 64% ...its not in the same stratosphere .....

leaving aside the stats for a moment, isn't it wayyyy too obvious from their styles of play that federer's style of play translates far better onto indoor surfaces than nadal's ?

If you were someone whom I wasn't sure watched tennis these days or not, I would have given the stats .....but that isn't the case here ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by zagor

@Abmk

To be fair though, indoor season is not nearly what it used to be, they eliminated carpet and the only indoor masters tourney Paris is not taken seriously by the top players given how close it is to YEC, they mostly tank it in order to give their best effort at WTF.

That said, yeah Fed being better than Nadal indoors is as clear to me as Nadal being better on clay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by abmk

yeah, indoor season used to better earlier with more tournaments and faster surfaces....

regardless my point stands, anyone who follows tennis in recent times should be able to tell that federer is clearly superior to nadal indoors ....

Thanks Zagor.

And for goodness sake abmk, do I have to memorize every stat? First of all not all things said are necessarily true. I like to often check out the facts to say if what people write and say are true. People say Federer is better than Nadal indoors, fine and I've seen Federer crush Nadal indoors. But I haven't seen every Federer-Nadal match and perhaps there were a few I missed. I don't remember offhand the winning percentages on every surface of every player and if someone does I would suggest they get a life.

I really don't get why I have to answer for a simple thing I was wondering about.

I've seen sports enough to know what they say isn't always true.

urban · 12-14-2012, 07:07 AM

I think, Pc1 made a valuable point with pointing to the end season. The indoor season isn't, what is has been before in the 90s, many players don't focus on the Year end final, or skip the most important Bercy tournament alltogether or play both only because of bonus money. This year Djokovic was out to prove his Nr. 1 status, last year he seemed without real interest in the late season. Also it seemed that Nadal focussed more on the Davis Cup finals, and often played the last season flat, uninspired and listless. When he was motivated as in Madrid indoors, when he beat Ljubicic in 2005 or 2006, he could do some good things indoors. I remember some indoor exhibitions with Federer i think in 2009, when there certainly was no gulf between those players. I think Nadal won an indoor exo series 2-1.

abmk · 12-14-2012, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pc1

Thanks Zagor.

And for goodness sake abmk, do I have to memorize every stat? First of all not all things said are necessarily true. I like to often check out the facts to say if what people write and say are true. People say Federer is better than Nadal indoors, fine and I've seen Federer crush Nadal indoors. But I haven't seen every Federer-Nadal match and perhaps there were a few I missed. I don't remember offhand the winning percentages on every surface of every player and if someone does I would suggest they get a life.

I really don't get why I have to answer for a simple thing I was wondering about.

I've seen sports enough to know what they say isn't always true.

see again, what I said ... no one is expected to have seen every match b/w them or remember their details or stats ...

but as a broad detail, if you've seen them play indoors several times , you should know their general level of play there ....

again this is what I said :

Quote:

Originally Posted by abmk

anyone who follows tennis these days would/should have some idea about the records of the top 2 players of the generation on all surfaces ... I am not saying they should know all the details, just that they should have some idea .....

abmk · 12-14-2012, 07:18 AM

Quote: