Wrist snap question

[TheLambsheadrep]

Originally Posted by TheCheese

Focus on getting that prestretch feeling in your arm. It feels like loading a slingshot and letting it release up and across the ball.

How you do this is a whole other conversation in itself. Hint: Pronate during the takeback.

Watching some of the pro's back swings, you can def see that their forearms do pronate (almost starting from when their off hand leaves the racquet) for at least their forehand takebacks because their palms are facing down and the racquet face that would make contact is parallel to the ground (or close to it) right before they go "low-to-high."

So there's pronation early before contact which relates to the racquet whipping around when you accelerate low-to-high to the ball. Is that pronation what causes the natural motion of the SSC aka the wrist turning over itself and finish "thumbs down" when you follow through across your body? Or is there another pronation just before/at contact that turns the wrist over and is mistaken for wrist action?

I asked the question above because I can achieve the "thumbs down" finish by using my wrist in a WW-esque follow through, but now want it to occur from the SSC. After looking into this subject and learning about keeping the palm back and down on the back swing, I want to make this my natural swing and break the habit of using my wrist (using it a lot, at least). I have changed some of my thinking from the very long post I have on page 7. The topic of ulnar deviation to flatten out a shot is interesting though, especially now that I understand what Toly was saying. I just can't see someone that uses a full western FW doing this - I tried a few air strokes and it never felt like I would be able to control where the ball went. Now, I do have a SW FW (and a pretty bad real western FW at that) and I can def imagine it working. It's just a little more slap to the ball.

[TheLambsheadrep]

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep

Now, I do have a SW FW (and a pretty bad real western FW at that) and I can def imagine it working. It's just a little more slap to the ball.

But whether this is the right way to flatten out a shot or not, I do not know

[julian]

Originally Posted by toly

Hi,
may I ask you a favor.
Could you provide a verbal definition of radial deviation?
Thank you
The picture above does NOT say whether it is a planar movement or NOT.
If you can address this issue it would nice as well
PS
a possible definition of ulnar deviation from Wikipedia below
---->
Ulnar deviation is also a physiological movement of the wrist, where the hand including the fingers move towards the ulna. Ulnar deviation is a disorder in which flexion by ulnar nerve innervated muscles is intact while flexion on the median nerve side is not.

[toly]

Originally Posted by julian

Hi,
may I ask you a favor.
Could you provide a verbal definition of radial deviation?
Thank you
The picture above does NOT say whether it is a planar movement or NOT.
If you can address this issue it would nice as well
PS
a possible definition of ulnar deviation from Wikipedia below
---->
Ulnar deviation is also a physiological movement of the wrist, where the hand including the fingers move towards the ulna. Ulnar deviation is a disorder in which flexion by ulnar nerve innervated muscles is intact while flexion on the median nerve side is not.

Radial deviation is movement of the wrist, where the hand moves towards the radius (bone of the forehand).

BTW, the question about planar motion is very difficult. Brian Gordon wrote somewhere that wrist motions are very complicated that’s why so far nobody was able to create math model of the wrist motions.

IMO, if the wrist is near neutral position, from the wrist flexion/extension standpoint, the wrist deviations can move in plane. If there is a lot of wrist flexion or extension the motion would be restricted and more complicated.

[TheLambsheadrep]

So there's pronation early before contact which relates to the racquet whipping around when you accelerate low-to-high to the ball. Is that pronation what causes the natural motion of the SSC aka the wrist turning over itself and finish "thumbs down" when you follow through across your body? Or is there another pronation just before/at contact that turns the wrist over and is mistaken for wrist action?

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep

So there's pronation early before contact which relates to the racquet whipping around when you accelerate low-to-high to the ball. Is that pronation what causes the natural motion of the SSC aka the wrist turning over itself and finish "thumbs down" when you follow through across your body? Or is there another pronation just before/at contact that turns the wrist over and is mistaken for wrist action?

I wouldn't think of it that way.
Depending on the shot the pronation can occur before contact or after contact. There can be forearm pronation as well as pronation from the shoulder. There are several factors which come into play such as personal style and flair, grip, intent etc. There's also wrist ulnar and radial deviation.

SSC is something else and happens earlier in the swing and is not caused by pronation.

[TheLambsheadrep]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

I wouldn't think of it that way.
Depending on the shot the pronation can occur before contact or after contact. There can be forearm pronation as well as pronation from the shoulder. There are several factors which come into play such as personal style and flair, grip, intent etc. There's also wrist ulnar and radial deviation.

SSC is something else and happens earlier in the swing and is not caused by pronation.

So you're saying the "right way" to swing includes pronation and wrist deviation(s) but not wrist flexion (or extension..?). And that the pronation and wrist deviation(s) can occur at any given time during the swing depending on the type of shot?

So pretty much the general rule is that there is no order to how these movements happen, but that they will happen as long as you don't try to force anything? I'm used to teaching younger children who need steps 1, 2, and 3 to hit a forehand or it's all a big mess, so to hear that there's no given order to the pronations and wrist deviations on a standard forehand is weird to me

[toly]

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep

So you're saying the "right way" to swing includes pronation and wrist deviation(s) but not wrist flexion (or extension..?). And that the pronation and wrist deviation(s) can occur at any given time during the swing depending on the type of shot?

So pretty much the general rule is that there is no order to how these movements happen, but that they will happen as long as you don't try to force anything? I'm used to teaching younger children who need steps 1, 2, and 3 to hit a forehand or it's all a big mess, so to hear that there's no given order to the pronations and wrist deviations on a standard forehand is weird to me

IMO there are at least three completely different types of forehands with semiwestern/western grip:
1. Flat FH
2. Topspin FH (WW FH)
3. Hard topspin FH
Which one do you want to talk first?

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by TheLambsheadrep

So you're saying the "right way" to swing includes pronation and wrist deviation(s) but not wrist flexion (or extension..?). And that the pronation and wrist deviation(s) can occur at any given time during the swing depending on the type of shot?

So pretty much the general rule is that there is no order to how these movements happen, but that they will happen as long as you don't try to force anything? I'm used to teaching younger children who need steps 1, 2, and 3 to hit a forehand or it's all a big mess, so to hear that there's no given order to the pronations and wrist deviations on a standard forehand is weird to me

I didn't say anything about flexion or extension. Forgot to mention them.
They are in the mix too.

I didn't say there is 'no order'. The order and degree can be forced intentionally with muscle control or you can force the order with the setup in the takeback and just 'letting it happen in the order you intended ' or you can just let it rip and see what happens however I think most people control what happens with one of the 1st 2 methods.
It depends on the player and the situation.

I'm not a coach and have no experience teaching tennis children but I would suspect there is more of a structured swing plan implemented for them.

You can accomplish the same type of shot many different ways. I can hit a high heavy topspin cc shot several ways. I can use forearm pronation early or late or almost no pronation or utilizing isr for the spin or use a very steep low to high swing with x amount of deviation or a more level swing with y amount of deviation and z amount of pronation or using a pretty locked hitting structure with a ww or with a semi straight arm and wristing it with a whippy type swing etc.
It just depends on how i'm feeling or how i'm hitting that day or how well my legs are moving and how much time i have to set up etc.

I don't think there's a set preferred order. But maybe some coaches on here will tell you otherwise. It's simple and yet complicated which is why many of us spend a lot of time here discussing such things.