Video hitting some serves - critique wanted

[TimothyO]

You've got a case of happy feet. I count at least 2-3 steps in each serve.

The first is the large one from platform to pinpoint. Since you have such a large pause at that point any momentum from that movement is lost.

Then you have an additional 1-2 tiny mini-step/hops with your leading foot. The intensity and height varies from remaining in contact with the ground and barely lifting to actually lifting off the ground...the first occurs most frequently and the second on occasion. The first occurs during take back and the second during up swing. Again, their timing and duration adds nothing to your momentum and result in an unstable hitting platform.

How did I notice this? Well, in the last 12 months I've had THREE different teaching pros say the same thing to me. And they were right!!!!

After the third guy told me this in the fall I decided to take this seriously.

I now serve consistently with more power and FAR more accuracy than I did previously. My left knee and right ankle are too damaged to perform a full leg push up and into the ball. I've done it, it works great, but after several sessions it hurts my knee.

I think we have these little happy feet hitches to give us some slack on core turn. I have a friend with a similar problem but even more extreme. She has this huge wind up and then...STOPS! Full stop. Frozen. And the proceeds to whack the ball really hard and inaccurately.

These happy feet can cause problems later in the stroke, so before worrying about anything else get your footwork stable and smooth. I can suggest that with confidence because my feet weren't just happy, they were ecstatic!

Watch the videos closely and you'll see these tiny little steps and stops and how they effect your swing by creating hitches in your balance.

[JackB1]

^^^

thanks CharlieF....great stuff! Really appreciate it.

Its funny, because even with how "bad" my serve looks...its still better than about 75% of the guys I play against at 3.5-4.0 level. I actually can hold serve more times than not. But its good to know there's lot of room for improvement

[JackB1]

Timothy, great observations indeed. I gotta get a more stable base with my feet and get my serve off to a better start. Thanks! Lots to work on

[Nellie]

Things I see -

Easy things to change:

1) There is some motion that some wasted/extraneous - like a step back followed up with a step forward into the original position during the toss. These are not necessarily bad to the end result - more that you are adding a lot of complexity that does not help and, at worst, may throw off your timing. Try practicing with your feet set with a wider base before the toss.

2) Toss is too far back - try moving the toss forward

3) Try start with your shoulder turn more so that you get more shoulder rotation during the serve. The toss will feel weird because you will be tossing way to your left. Now, you are pretty much chest forward toward the ball throughout the motion. This means you get no energy from the big muscles in your torso - all your power is coming from the small arm/shoulder muscles.

4) I like your right arm position, relative to your body, because you are keeping your shoulder in a safe distance from your head. However, because your back is straight, that means your arm is out to your side at contact - losing height and net clearance. Try reaching up as high as possible with your racquet, while bending your head slightly sideways to keep that good arm position.

5). Sometimes your left arm/head drop early, leading to an awkward motion - keep that left arm up as long as possible.

Harder things to change:

6) I don't see any weight shift forward and into the ball - i.e., a rock to the back leg, with the weight moving forwarding during the serve so that your body weight is moving into the ball.

7) (Related to 3 and 6) You are basically muscling the ball now, rather than relying on your kinetic chain. You would get a harder serve by relaxing you arm/shoulder muscles until the instant before contact. Let your arm go long for the ride provided by your body motion until right before contact and then engage those muscles

[zapvor]

Originally Posted by JackB1

^^^

thanks CharlieF....great stuff! Really appreciate it.

Its funny, because even with how "bad" my serve looks...its still better than about 75% of the guys I play against at 3.5-4.0 level. I actually can hold serve more times than not. But its good to know there's lot of room for improvement

interesting. where do you play? the guys here with that kind of serve would get crushed easy.

[zapvor]

Originally Posted by charliefedererer

Hopefully you will find the following video helpful:
McC

Coach McCraw has some nice shots from the back showing correct path of the arm/hand/racquet in bringing the racquet to a full racquet drop.

He emphasizes taking the racqeut back and up in an "outside to inside" path.

By bringing the racquet back away from the body ("outside"), it is easier for it to end up on the right side of your body, or "inside".

[Conversely if you bring your racquet up very close to your body, there is a tendency to end up with your hand/racquet more in the middle of your back, or "outside". This would tend to give you racquet drop into the middle of your back - it subsequently is very difficult to pronate if you brought your racquet up from the middle of your back.]


(Later on when you swing upward out of your racquet drop you will want to pronate.
Many don't realize that the racquet/arm at full racquet drop has to be well to the right to set up pronation in the actual swing phase - they mistakenly have the racquet drop in the middle of their back in a "backscratch" position.)


In the above sequence you can see how Sam Stosur's racquet drop is well to the right of her body in pic 1. Notice how the arm is straightened in pics 1-10 keeping the arm well to the right side - this sets up the ability to swing the racquet from right to left to contact in pics 11-19.) )


Once you have the proper racquet drop well to the right of your body, you can then practice this pronation movement as a separate exercise, as demonstrated in this video:
McCraw explaining a serve pronation exercise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iONY6fcqZGg






While the above can be worked on as separate shadowing/hitting exercises that can then be incorporated into your serve, you also need to work on how you get your serve started - your "toss into your trophy position move".
[If you don't get off to a proper start, the toss seems rushed, and it is struggle to maintain balance - rather you should smoothly be in balance throughout the toss into the trophy position.]

Tossing and getting into your trophy position must be combined - you should not be tossing - then getting into a trophy position.

And the place to start is using the forward bend into the court to start to build momentum that you can use to get the toss started. (Right now after you step forward, you totally stop before tossing.)


Notice Fed bends forward (pic 1) , and that as he bends his upper body back (pic 2), that automatically gets the arm starting to move up, starting the tossing motion.
He brings his tossing arm straight up in pics 3-4. Having that arm straight up in pic 4 - the trophy position insures he has a very steep shoulder angle - his left shoulder is straight up, and his right shoulder is straight down.
Notice in his trophy position he is in the shape of a bow - that bow is even more accentuated in pic 5.

So getting off to a proper start in a serve is key to having a relaxed balance serve.
Check out the following three videos on how to get that toss into the trophy position:
Tennis Serve Tossing Motion Tempo [uUd6k&feature=related[/url]
Tennis Serve Toss - How to Hold the Ball http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8kyn...eature=related
(It is much more comfortable to toss the ball in this way, rather than trying to contort the tossing arm to maintain the hand under the ball as you bring it higher before ball release.)

...................
To top it all off, dropping the left shoulder is protective of your rotator cuff muscles, and can help prevent a shoulder overuse injury as you are doing all that serve practice!

Preventing Rotator Cuff Injury http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTRvxaBMh8s



ope I've given you some tips on how to work on things individually.

I hope this helps.

Good luck!

this post is nice and all, but on a forum its not going to work. you are overloading info at the person, hes not going to absorb it properly even if he reads it. most likely he wont even. its better to keep it concise and give him 1 or 2 essential elements to think about.

just picture a pro standing next to his student and reading your entire post aloud to the student. how do you think teh student will react? exactly.

[JohnB]

Originally Posted by JackB1

ad side serves
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIGX4touWHc

deuce side
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTjmVNQzqpI

I can see how I a falling to the left instead of straight into the court.
that one thing I am working on.

I know my from isn't the greatest, but I can usually hold serve about 75% of the time and only double fault about 2, 3 times a match. Any suggestions on what I can improve would be great. Thanks.

Jack,

Having watched your backhand issue also, I think I see a lack of stability in your feet on your backhand as well as on your service. It's like you're playing on mud (a figure of speech). I see that you try your utmost best to get the kinetic chain started, but it Seems to me that you can't push off enough to get the motion started. If you can get your feet stable/strong enough, so that the leg muscles can apply force without pushing the feet out of balance, I think you will improve a lot.

[3fees]

Try serving with an eastern fh grip for flat serves, as too stance platform-feet spread apart comfortably and stationary, on the finish the right foot is straight up and down, no weight on it at all, weight is fwd on left foot.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by zapvor

interesting. where do you play? the guys here with that kind of serve would get crushed easy.

How would you know that unless you were on the receiving end of my serve?
Sure it looks not so great, but the result still is pretty good. I get pretty good pace on my serve and can place it to body, wide or T. Nobody is teeing off on my serve, I promise you. I play in Atlanta 3.5 & 4.0 singles and A8 level doubles. Atlanta has more tennis players per square mile than almost anywhere, so the competition level is very good.

Don't be fooled by a few practice serves on video....it's better than it "appears".
You are more than welcome to look me up next time in Atlanta and see how you
can "crush my serve" . Where are you located anyway?

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by JohnB

Jack,

Having watched your backhand issue also, I think I see a lack of stability in your feet on your backhand as well as on your service. It's like you're playing on mud (a figure of speech). I see that you try your utmost best to get the kinetic chain started, but it Seems to me that you can't push off enough to get the motion started. If you can get your feet stable/strong enough, so that the leg muscles can apply force without pushing the feet out of balance, I think you will improve a lot.

look....I'm 53 years old and doing the best I can
if there are some things that are easy enough to change, I will try and change them. But most people here are a little unrealistic about what I can do given my age and lack of flexibility and practice time.

I agree with you that balance and lack of leg usage is one of my overall issues. I am working on that all the time and wish I could just press a button that says "engage core" . For some reason I feel more comfortable straight up and down and really have to make a point of bending and using my lower half more.

[TimothyO]

Originally Posted by zapvor

interesting. where do you play? the guys here with that kind of serve would get crushed easy.

Jack's serve is easily 3.5/4.0 in Atlanta. In fact, he looks more consistent than a lot of guys I've seen.

One fellow I know who plays 4.0 Ultimate Tennis here in Atlanta has a serve that's weaker than Jack's and yet he often goes undefeated and wins his division. The reason? Consistency. He gets the serve in. Scott's serve looks terrible. His first serve is a fast and inaccurate waiter serve. His second is a dink waiter serve. NO proper form at all. And yet he wins. At least Jack has a semblance of good form.

Just because a serve might look slow doesn't make it easy to hit winners off of, especially at 3.5/4.0. Male players at this level imagine they're Djoker blasting returns...and if the serve never rises above net level odds are they're going to hit long or in the net. At 3.5/4.0 scooping low serves below net level and generating enough top spin to drive a winner in bounds ain't easy to do consistently.

Also, at low-mid level, placement is more imprtant than power since power at these levels is the enemy of consistency. But by learning how to place your serve you have a chance at providing opportunities for your opponent to cough up UEs.

Yes, there are 3.5/4.0 players who can serve really hard, I hit with two of them over the weekend to practice my return of serve. But the ones who can do that consistently are very rare.

[TimothyO]

Originally Posted by JackB1

look....I'm 53 years old and doing the best I can
if there are some things that are easy enough to change, I will try and change them. But most people here are a little unrealistic about what I can do given my age and lack of flexibility and practice time.

I agree with you that balance and lack of leg usage is one of my overall issues. I am working on that all the time and wish I could just press a button that says "engage core" . For some reason I feel more comfortable straight up and down and really have to make a point of bending and using my lower half more.

This is my gripe about a lot of tennis instructional videos (and many teaching pros for that matter).

Read any tennis book or watch most instruction videos on the web and the advice assumes you're 14 years old with well greased joints.

They're just not realistic for 80% of rec players who have day jobs and are middle aged (I'm 46 and have lots of battle damage from sports).

[zapvor]

Originally Posted by JackB1

How would you know that unless you were on the receiving end of my serve?
Sure it looks not so great, but the result still is pretty good. I get pretty good pace on my serve and can place it to body, wide or T. Nobody is teeing off on my serve, I promise you. I play in Atlanta 3.5 & 4.0 singles and A8 level doubles. Atlanta has more tennis players per square mile than almost anywhere, so the competition level is very good.

Don't be fooled by a few practice serves on video....it's better than it "appears".
You are more than welcome to look me up next time in Atlanta and see how you
can "crush my serve" . Where are you located anyway?

interesting. i was projecting obviously. so defensive haha. by the way i didnt say i would crush you. i said guys here like that would get crushed. i know atl has a huge tennis population. i am in the TWMAC we are the biggest chapter by far. if you ever come up lets hit.

better yet since you are calling yourself out lets see those serves down the T body and wide.

[zapvor]

Originally Posted by TimothyO

Jack's serve is easily 3.5/4.0 in Atlanta. In fact, he looks more consistent than a lot of guys I've seen.

One fellow I know who plays 4.0 Ultimate Tennis here in Atlanta has a serve that's weaker than Jack's and yet he often goes undefeated and wins his division. The reason? Consistency. He gets the serve in. Scott's serve looks terrible. His first serve is a fast and inaccurate waiter serve. His second is a dink waiter serve. NO proper form at all. And yet he wins. At least Jack has a semblance of good form.

Just because a serve might look slow doesn't make it easy to hit winners off of, especially at 3.5/4.0. Male players at this level imagine they're Djoker blasting returns...and if the serve never rises above net level odds are they're going to hit long or in the net. At 3.5/4.0 scooping low serves below net level and generating enough top spin to drive a winner in bounds ain't easy to do consistently.

Also, at low-mid level, placement is more imprtant than power since power at these levels is the enemy of consistency. But by learning how to place your serve you have a chance at providing opportunities for your opponent to cough up UEs.

Yes, there are 3.5/4.0 players who can serve really hard, I hit with two of them over the weekend to practice my return of serve. But the ones who can do that consistently are very rare.

you make good points. i guess i am lucky in that 95% of players i play with are much better so for me that level isnt impressive.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by zapvor

interesting. i was projecting obviously. so defensive haha. by the way i didnt say i would crush you. i said guys here like that would get crushed. i know atl has a huge tennis population. i am in the TWMAC we are the biggest chapter by far. if you ever come up lets hit.

better yet since you are calling yourself out lets see those serves down the T body and wide.

where is the TWMAC?

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by zapvor

interesting. i was projecting obviously. so defensive haha. by the way i didnt say i would crush you. i said guys here like that would get crushed. i know atl has a huge tennis population. i am in the TWMAC we are the biggest chapter by far. if you ever come up lets hit.

better yet since you are calling yourself out lets see those serves down the T body and wide.

when I get a chance I will show you, but for now I've got bigger fish to fry.

[luvforty]

that serve sure won't be crushed at 4.0 ... but they look like your first serves... what about the 2nd serve?... that is typically the weak area at this level... and with the waiter position going, it's tough to hit effective 2nd serves.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by zapvor

you make good points. i guess i am lucky in that 95% of players i play with are much better so for me that level isnt impressive.

Until you see me play an entire match, you really are in no position to judge my level. There is SO much more to winning a match then blasting hard serves. The purpose of the thread was to get help for my serve (and for others who may have similar issues. Not to compare the level of tennis of my part of the country to yours.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by luvforty

that serve sure won't be crushed at 4.0 ... but they look like your first serves... what about the 2nd serve?... that is typically the weak area at this level... and with the waiter position going, it's tough to hit effective 2nd serves.

those weren't my first or second serves....maybe something in between.. Again....not the point here.

[zapvor]

Originally Posted by JackB1

where is the TWMAC?

Originally Posted by JackB1

when I get a chance I will show you, but for now I've got bigger fish to fry.

Originally Posted by JackB1

Until you see me play an entire match, you really are in no position to judge my level. There is SO much more to winning a match then blasting hard serves. The purpose of the thread was to get help for my serve (and for others who may have similar issues. Not to compare the level of tennis of my part of the country to yours.

mid atlantic. dc/md/va

yea thats fine you got bigger fish i understand.

again i am judging based on what i see. of course its not a complete picture. and i didnt say the serve wins the match. i merely said those serves are not good enough against most of the players i see here. you were the one that brought up geography first going on about "oh i play in ATL we are most densely populated for tennis and your A8 league and etc etc"

its kind of funny on one hand you post video and seem receptive to criticism but then you are so sure you are at a certain level....