3.5 Serve and Volley?

[penpal]

I actually blogged about this recently, after Llodra won a few matches and re-ignited the s&v debate at the pro level.

I think it can be an extremely effective tactic at the 3.5 level because, as Drop Shot noted, many players aren't used to facing it and you can win a LOT of easy points. The problem as I see it though is the physical toll it takes. When you serve and volley you make a run to the net on every first serve - whether your serve is in, into the net, or into the back fence. It can be exhausting for 3.5 players because, frankly, they're going to miss a lot of first serves and therefore do a lot of extra running. And if they aren't missing a lot of first serves then their first serve probably isn't forceful and they'll get consistently passed by the better 3.5 players.

Still, as I noted in my blog post, I think it can be a terrific strategy at the club level - especially when applied against the right opponent.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by texacali

How common is serve and volley in 3.5 men's league tennis, singles or doubles? Or chip and charge? I'm REALLY old school and it has always been on short balls, chip and charge and if you can hit a pretty good serve ( 1 & 2) come in behind it. Any thoughts?

In my very limited experience ABSOLUTELY NO 3.5 players play serve and volley, or even effective chip and charge. All tennis up to and including low level 4.0 is essentially pushing tennis. Yes, we all have our moments of dazzling serve and volley and chip and charge points, but the games of players at and below the 4.0 level are simply not sound enough to do this consistently and effectively, point after point.

This is just my current opinion based on only 52 matches against 3.0 to 4.0 level players this year. Corrections are welcome.

[mib]

Originally Posted by penpal

I actually blogged about this recently, after Llodra won a few matches and re-ignited the s&v debate at the pro level.

I think it can be an extremely effective tactic at the 3.5 level because, as Drop Shot noted, many players aren't used to facing it and you can win a LOT of easy points. The problem as I see it though is the physical toll it takes. When you serve and volley you make a run to the net on every first serve - whether your serve is in, into the net, or into the back fence. It can be exhausting for 3.5 players because, frankly, they're going to miss a lot of first serves and therefore do a lot of extra running. And if they aren't missing a lot of first serves then their first serve probably isn't forceful and they'll get consistently passed by the better 3.5 players.

Still, as I noted in my blog post, I think it can be a terrific strategy at the club level - especially when applied against the right opponent.

I've played against S&V players in singles at 4.0. It can be quite frustrating. However, chipping and charging off their second serve can completely throw them off

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by TomT

In my very limited experience ABSOLUTELY NO 3.5 players play serve and volley, or even effective chip and charge. All tennis up to and including low level 4.0 is essentially pushing tennis. Yes, we all have our moments of dazzling serve and volley and chip and charge points, but the games of players at and below the 4.0 level are simply not sound enough to do this consistently and effectively, point after point.

This is just my current opinion based on only 52 matches against 3.0 to 4.0 level players this year. Corrections are welcome.

I agree with this, at this level it's serve and RETREAT. The server comes in on the usually short angled return by the receiver and then beats a hasty retreat back to the baseline. In dubs, as his partner, I'm at the service line waiting for him to get next to me to cut off the angles--but he's dinking his return and going back. Why? Because at this level they can't volley. They haven't been taught to volley. They can knock off a high setter if positioned on top of the net, but any gorilla can do that. Hitting a proper approach or volley is not in their stroke repertoire. In their defense, a volley is not that easy a stroke to hit. You have to learn it and then practice it.

If you're playing the modern club-dub game--one up/one back--you don't need to learn how to hit a proper volley. One guy hovers over the net waiting for a high setter to play whack-a-mole while his partner plays singles on a wider court, (the two alleys making the court eight feet wider). This will work ok if both teams are on the same page, using the same strategy--but if someone out there knows how to volley it will screw-up the program.

[dcdoorknob]

It's easy to prove someone wrong who talks in absolutes.

I have seen 3.5s who serve an volley regularly (but it's pretty darn rare). There are absolutely 4.0 doubles players who S&V, and basically live at the net.

I have definitely seen 3.5s who serve and volley at least every once in a while (I am one).

Also, show me a powder puff 2nd serve and I'm going to be giving it a ride (or slicing it) and coming in behind it almost every time.

Also, saying all 3.5 tennis is pushing tennis is inaccurate. There are plenty of 3.5 guys who can hit the ball plenty hard, they just can't keep it in 3 times in a row.

[sundaypunch]

Originally Posted by dcdoorknob

It's easy to prove someone wrong who talks in absolutes.

I have seen 3.5s who serve an volley regularly (but it's pretty darn rare). There are absolutely 4.0 doubles players who S&V, and basically live at the net.

I have definitely seen 3.5s who serve and volley at least every once in a while (I am one).

Also, show me a powder puff 2nd serve and I'm going to be giving it a ride (or slicing it) and coming in behind it almost every time.

Also, saying all 3.5 tennis is pushing tennis is inaccurate. There are plenty of 3.5 guys who can hit the ball plenty hard, they just can't keep it in 3 times in a row.

Exactly. I see more of these than pushers.

[Larrysümmers]

its doable, i dont see why it wouldnt be. truthfully, i can see it working at grandslam level if the player knows what they are doing.

[LeeD]

Old days, lots of 3.5's, or C players, used S/V exclusively, because that's what the pros did in the mid '70's.
How can you get good at something if you don't practice it during a match?
I did, as did almost every guy who got past 4.5. That was the accepted method to play any kind of competitive MEN's tennis.
Now we are all girls.

[Cindysphinx]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Old days, lots of 3.5's, or C players, used S/V exclusively, because that's what the pros did in the mid '70's.
How can you get good at something if you don't practice it during a match?
I did, as did almost every guy who got past 4.5. That was the accepted method to play any kind of competitive MEN's tennis.
Now we are all girls.

Sounds like an insult to girls.

[Winning Ugly]

At 3.5 doubles, if you have a decent and varied serve, and can simply put the first volley in play, you will win way more points on serve than you will lose. It is also a nice tactic to use occasionally in singles to keep the returner guessing -- but I don't think there are too many guys who are legit 3.5's that can win consistently doing this in singles against halfway decent 3.5 players -- there's just too much room to pass/lob a 3.5 volleyer in singles, unless they get to the net by approaching off a short ball.

S&V is probably how I earned the last .1 or so to get bumped to 4.0. I began playing a fair amount of 4.0 (all doubles) last year and while I win more points coming in than staying back, that's not saying much. The typical solid 4.0 has me at almost breakeven on my serve with good returns and the ability to totally destroy the weak volley -- that's no way to win matches. I would say that the % of S&V at 3.5 and 4.0 seems identical -- it's just that, as expected, the typical 4.0 is better at most, if not all, facets...

[LeeD]

CindyS, Martina Nav notwithstanding, there are very few women who exclusively try to get to the net, plain and simple.
Is your offer still valid? Marry ME...

[tennisplayer1993]

it's not that common in singles

[stapletonj]

Even more than the pass, I think the lob kills s and v.

Further more, the demise of the stays low skidding slice approach kills s and v.

the hardest thing to do off a low skidding ball is to lob effectively.

the 2nd hardest thing to do is to place a hard penetrating shot over the higest part of the net with enough pace to get past an onrushing s and v 'er, but enough topspin to keep it in the court.

The easiest thing to do is to chip a low skidding off pace shot (which to be a winner has to be into about a 6 inch window that completely fools the volleyer, who has shaded a little to the side of the court you are on, and then drops in).....and if you can do that consistently, you deserve to win

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by stapletonj

The easiest thing to do is to chip a low skidding off pace shot (which to be a winner has to be into about a 6 inch window that completely fools the volleyer, who has shaded a little to the side of the court you are on, and then drops in).....and if you can do that consistently, you deserve to win

I'm with you on all that SJ, but could you explain the above more fully. I'm not getting it due to having been educated in Kali. If the ball needs to be in a "6 inch window", that doesn't sound so easy--could you expand on that please?

Thanks, Season's greetings.

[TimeToPlaySets]

Note to self: Next season, focus on going to the net after a skidding slice, or a deep topspin shot (as soon as I hit it, not once it lands and I get visual confirmation)

[stapletonj]

Sorry, I was being too vague and opaque.
You are supposed to be able to read my mind over these here internets to catch the sub-tle nuances of my thoughts.

The easiest thing to do with a low skidding slice approach is to slice/chip it back.

The problem is that it will be too low (into the net) too high (a sitter) or approx 6-12" above net level.

If it is 6-12" above net level and anywhere near the onrushing s and v'er, he or she is going to most likely knock it away for a winner.

Slicing a pass attempt down the line off a low approach is fraught with danger and most likely not going to be successful.

However, a crosscourt slice, esp where the s and v'er has "shaded" in the direction of the approach, has a pretty good chance of going over and going out of the reach of the volleyer. HOWEVER, you are hitting a sharp backhand slice cross court to the "short" part of the Court. The sideline will rob you of beautiful shots over and over again. (Remember, it is a slice, it has no topspin to make it dive down and grab the line) UNLESS, you take enough pace off to let our friend gravity drag it down to the court inside the white line. And the window to do that is about 6" wide.

My point was it was REALLY hard, and if you can hit that shot consistently off my approach, you win my admiration and the match. IF not, it may not be a long day for you, but it will be a miserable one.

[escii_35]

[quote=dizzlmcwizzl;7056149]My experience in 3.5 is that you had a huge range in age and skill .... The ability to volley is a marker of someone that is moving one way or another.

3.5 and moving up: These guys are younger, and make up for a lack of skill through athleticism ... these guys may throw in a serve and volley occasionally but lack the skill to do this successfully more than a couple times a match. Most hit hard and hope for weak replies to step into. When they develop the patience and skill to S&V they are moved up to 4.0.

Former 4.0s moving down to 3.5. These guys are mostly seniors that have had their movement diminished with age. You wont see them play singles but they will kill you in doubles because they actually know how to volley consistently into the court and have a basic understanding of how to play doubles.

</QUOTE>
What Dizz said..

Either falling 4.0's with limited mobility who humor me by playing some singles because they just beat up on me in dubs or athletes with either an obvious FH or BH weakness.

Both know that if they stay on the baseline I'll pick them apart unless they start making horrific calls.

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by stapletonj

...Slicing a pass attempt down the line off a low approach is fraught with danger and most likely not going to be successful.

...The sideline will rob you of beautiful shots over and over again.

...My point was it was REALLY hard, and if you can hit that shot consistently off my approach, you win my admiration and the match. IF not, it may not be a long day for you, but it will be a miserable one.

Yup, the net is 6" higher down the line and add singles sticks to that and life becomes even tougher. That reminds me, the tournament season is starting and I better dust off my singles sticks for practicing.

[Pbarrow]

Tom, what are differences between your singles and doubles sticks?

[tennis tom]

Originally Posted by Pbarrow

Tom, what are differences between your singles and doubles sticks?

About six inches.