Video hitting some serves - critique wanted

[5263]

Originally Posted by arche3

Start fresh. Relearn everything. Will take about a year. You do not need to be a kid to learn again. Your fit enough. Its the old wrong habits that will take a lot of reps to erase.

I don't think this makes too much sense given his serve in not that bad at all unless
you want to compare him to the best players
Nice looking rec serve over all and trending towards some improvements
should be a super way for him to go imo.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by toly

This is again pure speculation!!! Can you provide any proof that supports your statements???????

I cite my experience in playing all my life, taking many lessons over the years, talking to fellow players, reading numerous books, reading forums and other tennis instruction sites, being a member on several paid lesson sites and watching uncountable video lessons on the serve and have never read or heard anyone say 'supinate on the serve and then pronate'.

...except for your in posts.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by JackB1

Okay guys I need some advice here. I need to figure out a plan of attack on my serve. There are many things I need to fix but I can only handle one or two at a time. I realized I need to be realistic about what I can actually fix given my age and physical limitations. I will edit this thread later and list all the fixes I need to make.

I don't see any physical limitations. Overall not that bad but a couple of major problems there if you want a decent serve.

I'd say consider rebuilding from the beginning. The pancake / waiter thing is a big issue. Serving that way inhibits many other components.

Take a look at FYB progressions, essential tennis' 'free serve course' and vitualtennisacademy. all free.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by JackB1

Okay guys I need some advice here. I need to figure out a plan of attack on my serve. There are many things I need to fix but I can only handle one or two at a time. I realized I need to be realistic about what I can actually fix given my age and physical limitations. I will edit this thread later and list all the fixes I need to make.

Guys, I am not going to rebuild my serve. I just want to tweak it to make it a little better and more consistent. I play year round leagues and cannot afford to take 3 steps back to eventually get 4 steps forward. I am never going to get much more racquet drop or get to the same trophy position as the pro...that's never going to happen. So please help me focus on things I CAN fix.

As I see it, here are things I CAN possibly fix. Please help me put them in order that I should work on them, without hindering my current serve too much...

-more fluidity...no stops, pauses or hitches
-ball toss more deliberate and smooth
-ball toss more into the court and to the right
-more stable platform throughout...no "happy feet"
-slightly more racquet drop...flexibility will cause limits here
-more usage of legs and knees....again, this has limits
-no "waiter position". Lead with the edge and don't let palm face upward
-more pronation...Finnish with racquet on left side with palm facing right fence
-stop falling to the left...land on left foot straight ahead in balanced position
-contact point with arm fully extended, inside the court.
-more left hip lean into court at trophy pose
-keep tossing up moving until straight up
-more cartwheel motion with shoulders changing places
-keep chest facing sideways longer
-better trophy pose, with right shoulder much lower than left...hip leaning into court

please help me put these in a working order of importance. Thanks!

[Power Player]

Wow thats so much to think about..cheetahs tip on feet forward and serving really helps. Try that first. Get rid of that waiters tray for good because it will mess your arm up.

[toly]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

I cite my experience in playing all my life, taking many lessons over the years, talking to fellow players, reading numerous books, reading forums and other tennis instruction sites, being a member on several paid lesson sites and watching uncountable video lessons on the serve and have never read or heard anyone say 'supinate on the serve and then pronate'.

...except for your in posts.

Here is OP & Pros Racquet Orientation Comparison



Before arm pronation phase of the serve pros always bring the racquet so the racquet string bed is parallel to the target plane and at contact racquet string bed is perpendicular to target plane. This technique allows them to use arm pronation the most efficient way. The angular path of arm pronation would be around 90°.

In case of OP serve, his racquet orientation is completely wrong, due to before arm pronation phase the racquet’s string bed is already almost perpendicular to target plane and he cannot use arm pronation with angular path around 90°, but only about 10°, see picture below.



So, what is wrong with OP slice serve?

In order to use internal shoulder rotation (ISR) the most efficient way he has to use external shoulder rotation (ESR) as much as possible. I believe he does that very well. BTW there is no waiter’s tray at all, see frames #1 and #2, so it isn’t the problem.

He has only one problem that string bed before pronation is already perpendicular to target plane.

IMO, the forearm supination is the only motion that can provide additional 80° of the racquet turn and put it in proper position – parallel to target plane. If you know any different way to do it, just tell us please.

Next picture demonstrates very clearly proper racquet’s orientations.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by toly

BTW there is no waiter’s tray at all, see frames #1 and #2, so it isn’t the problem.

Image #1 shows he's in a waiter's tray position.

edit: the pro pic you posted is a kick serve and not a slice serve. different mechanics. different contact postion. different amount and timing of pronation, different swing path, different body position. not applicable to this discussion.

[JackB1]

Toly, thanks for the great analysis. I do think I still have slight "waiters tray" in frame 1, but its not as bad as it was in the first set of videos, so that is promising. I am continuing to work on that. My palm is not facing 100% upwards, but about 45%.

And yes, I believe that diagram is of a kick serve, which I am not working on right now, so its not exactly what I need right now, but I do appreciate it. You can tell how the ball was tossed behind his head.

But back to your point of pronation...it looks like there is some pronation going from frame 3 to frame 4. So what exactly is my issue here, in terms I can understand and try to fix? Am am pronating too early and not enough? What steps do I take to fix? Again, be realistic about what's "fixable".

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

I don't see any physical limitations. Overall not that bad but a couple of major problems there if you want a decent serve.

I'd say consider rebuilding from the beginning. The pancake / waiter thing is a big issue. Serving that way inhibits many other components.

Take a look at FYB progressions, essential tennis' 'free serve course' and vitualtennisacademy. all free.

there is a GREAT video on serve at virtualtennisacademy call "The 1st Serve" Just watched it and it was very helpful. Highly recommended. Thanks Cheetah!

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by JackB1

there is a GREAT video on serve at virtualtennisacademy call "The 1st Serve" Just watched it and it was very helpful. Highly recommended. Thanks Cheetah!

yea the 1st serve slice video right? good site.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

yea the 1st serve slice video right? good site.

yes. I love the way they teach on that site with the checkpoints of positions you should hit.

question for all...

should I stick with an "abbreviated" motion where I go straight to an "L" position like I did in the 1st 2 videos (like Azarenka/Roddick) or should I let the racquet swing down and back first, like I did in the last video? I know this is personal preference, but I cannot decide which way to go. Since switching to the longer backswing, my toss is not as consistent, since there are more moving parts at the start. On the other hand, it's got more flow that way. Any opinions??? thanks

here's Azarenka with the "abbreviated" motion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHVtA7OP-TE (interesting point...NO GRUNTING!!!)

here is Brent Able with the fuller backswing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeZp90h-Ar8

[toly]

Originally Posted by JackB1

Toly, thanks for the great analysis. I do think I still have slight "waiters tray" in frame 1, but its not as bad as it was in the first set of videos, so that is promising. I am continuing to work on that. My palm is not facing 100% upwards, but about 45%.

And yes, I believe that diagram is of a kick serve, which I am not working on right now, so its not exactly what I need right now, but I do appreciate it. You can tell how the ball was tossed behind his head.

But back to your point of pronation...it looks like there is some pronation going from frame 3 to frame 4. So what exactly is my issue here, in terms I can understand and try to fix? Am am pronating too early and not enough? What steps do I take to fix? Again, be realistic about what's "fixable".

Here is OP & Kvitova Racquet Orientation Comparison



Let’s compare racquet’s orientations of yours and Kvitova’s slice serve, see also original video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUj4KnzF0cs.

In pic.1 longitude axis of Kvitova racquet is directed to deuce court, but you directed it to ad cord. The angular difference in azimuth orientation is around 70°.

In pic.4 you and Kvitova have the same racquet orientation. Thus, she can pronate her arm around 90° but you can pronate only 20°. That’s why your ball bounces two times before it reaches the fence. I’m old man and still can serve (sometimes) with one bounce.

In pic.1 you must apply proper amount of forearm supination to direct longitude axis of the racquet into duce court. Do exactly what Kvitova does.
This is not big deal and can be easily fixed!!!

[Power Player]

In pic 1 is it because the chest is not open towards the court yet? I think the act of opening the chest helps set the racquet on edge correctly but i could be wrong.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by toly

In pic.4 you and Kvitova have the same racquet orientation.

Sort of. Not really. In pic 4 Kvitova is making contact where you should be which is between the head and the shoulder. OP is making contact to the right side of his body. Also OP is in full radial deviation there and the racquet is pointing almost straight up as opposed to Kvitova who is making contact in a more neutral wrist position with more angle between racquet and forearm for leverage. OP has a lot less leverage in his contact position.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by toly

Here is OP & Kvitova Racquet Orientation Comparison

You must apply proper amount of forearm supination to direct longitude axis of the racquet into duce court. Do exactly what Kvitova does.
This is not big deal and can be easily fixed!!!

Huh? Can you rephrase in easier to understand terms? I wish I could do "exactly what Kvitova does" . I wish it was that easy.

BTW, I CAN hit the fence on one bounce on a serve. Not all the time, but I can do it.

[directionals]

Originally Posted by JackB1

-more fluidity...no stops, pauses or hitches
-ball toss more deliberate and smooth
-ball toss more into the court and to the right
-more stable platform throughout...no "happy feet"
-slightly more racquet drop...flexibility will cause limits here
-more usage of legs and knees....again, this has limits
-no "waiter position". Lead with the edge and don't let palm face upward
-more pronation...Finnish with racquet on left side with palm facing right fence
-stop falling to the left...land on left foot straight ahead in balanced position
-contact point with arm fully extended, inside the court.
-more left hip lean into court at trophy pose
-keep tossing up moving until straight up
-more cartwheel motion with shoulders changing places
-keep chest facing sideways longer
-better trophy pose, with right shoulder much lower than left...hip leaning into court

please help me put these in a working order of importance. Thanks!

I'd say work on removing the waiter tray and then make sure you lead with the edge of the raquet when you swing up and towards the ball, and then pronate. Make sure you practice the pronation drill in charliefedererer's post. You can even shadow swing that at home(choke up on the racquet) Forget about pushing up with your legs now. You can always add the legs later. This is coming from a guy who had similar issues a few months ago.

Also make sure you study coach McCraw's pronation drill video. Watch the motion frame by frame

[toly]

Originally Posted by JackB1

Huh? Can you rephrase in easier to understand terms? I wish I could do "exactly what Kvitova does" . I wish it was that easy.

BTW, I CAN hit the fence on one bounce on a serve. Not all the time, but I can do it.

Rotate the forearm (forearm supination) according to the red arrow, see pic.1, until you reach the position #2 in pic.2.

The forearm supination is very easy motion, so you shouldn’t have any problem. Good luck.

[JackB1]

^^^
ok thanks...I'll work on it.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by JackB1

^^^
ok thanks...I'll work on it.

no. don't do that unless you want your serve percent to go down to 15% not to mention less pace and less control.
crazy talk.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

no. don't do that unless you want your serve percent to go down to 15% not to mention less pace and less control.
crazy talk.

Don't do what? Were you being serious?