Forgive me you Sissies

[5263]

Originally Posted by rkelley

He hits with a lot of pace too, but don't think that those balls don't have a ton of topspin. He has a nice swing path and gets good topspin off the bh side as well. Love his bh.

I think he is referring to trajectory more than a lack of spin in this case.

[Akubra]

Originally Posted by Mick3391

I think I've apologized like 4 times now.

Fair enough. Wasn't trying to pile on I skipped most of the responses.

[vil]

Mick, I think we all know you didn't mean it the way you said it but seriously when you think about it, telling you step by step how to hit hard topspin forehand (for example) in this forum, will still not neccessarily make you do it right way. I think everybody realise that. Like 5263 says, a little bit of direction can be very useful but too much (I agree) can be confusing and can lead to worse execution of your shots.

[slowfox]

Sometimes I find the Tips forum to be similar to the Racquets or Strings sections. Folks trying to find the holy grail of equipment. Which stick with what specs along with what string at which tension will make me a beast on the courts...?!? Or in this case, what technique must I employ so I can play like the pros... (and please let this advice be like a magic pill).

To some extent I agree with the OP. Cripes, I wonder how many out there will do something just because some guy on some free internet forum told you to do it. Go "pat the dog" and your forehand will be monstrous. Well, yes and no. For the yes guys, great. You found some tip that helps your game. But for the no guys, leave the dog alone and find something else that will work for you.

Do what works. And for the most part you can do that on your own, as long as you're mindful with your approach to the process. The key word being mindful. Now perhaps at some point you might find that doing it alone has taken you as far as you can go i.e. you've plateaued, which means what you're doing is no longer working. So then go seek out what will work, and do it.

I'm not against lessons, coaching, or even the Tips forum. Heck, I got a tip here that really improved my second serve (thanks guys!). But before I incorporated that bit of advice, I thought about it, compared it to other advice and techniques I know or have heard of, and then went out to try it and test it, and then assessed the results, and upon further reflection decided to use and practice my *new* second serve and make it a part of my game, because it works for me.

I think the sissies and whiners just want magic pills, be it in the form of a racquet or advice. Read the equipment forums long enough and you'll see the wisest adage is something along the lines of "it's not the bow, it's the archer". Good advice. Listen to that. Some guy on the internet told ya so... lol

The tips forum is like a store selling bows and arrows, which is a good thing. But think critically of the sales staff (like you would at any department store), and do think if you really need another arrow in your quiver right now. Perhaps you have enough already to get by...today.

[Muppet]

When I hear a piece of advice, I visualize my service motion, forhand motion, backhand, etc. and I can "feel" whether or not the advice will fit into my form. If it seems to flow, I hope I can remember it until I practice next. Hearing and reading tips and recognizing things from footage that will help is very helpful to my game, such as it is.

[Povl Carstensen]

Originally Posted by Mick3391

Grow up! Quit whining, asking for advice, you going to be a star listening to our tips?

Go out there and be a man! I started playing at like 12 with my brother who was 21, I lost, lost, lost, but had desire, so got better and wipped him. Just go do your own thing or stop whining. Can't serve? Then PRACTICE! Poor forehand? PRACTICE!

There is no magical formula we can give you to lean, do what we did, that is work our tails off to get good, lose, win, win, lose, just fight through it. Run up to 5 miles, but also do sprints. Practice against a wall, just STOP with the "If I only hold my hand ......." nonsense.

I'm sorry, I just see so many wooses on this forum, can't play there is no suggestion for you except for you to play and learn yourself, how do you think we learned?

Even those who go to Tennis Academies only learn what they are taught, Tennis is much more than what you are taught, it's like boxing, unique to you.

Bring it on, I'll whip your a.. Well maybe not.

[tlm]

Originally Posted by Mick3391

Grow up! Quit whining, asking for advice, you going to be a star listening to our tips?

Go out there and be a man! I started playing at like 12 with my brother who was 21, I lost, lost, lost, but had desire, so got better and wipped him. Just go do your own thing or stop whining. Can't serve? Then PRACTICE! Poor forehand? PRACTICE!

There is no magical formula we can give you to lean, do what we did, that is work our tails off to get good, lose, win, win, lose, just fight through it. Run up to 5 miles, but also do sprints. Practice against a wall, just STOP with the "If I only hold my hand ......." nonsense.

I'm sorry, I just see so many wooses on this forum, can't play there is no suggestion for you except for you to play and learn yourself, how do you think we learned?

Even those who go to Tennis Academies only learn what they are taught, Tennis is much more than what you are taught, it's like boxing, unique to you.

A lot of truth in this thread, tennis is not easy but if you want to improve you have to play a lot and work hard there are no easy short cuts.

I really got serious about this game 10 years ago and I just played as much as possible. When I was good enough to play at a decent level I just kept finding as many opponents to play as I could.

Ideally you want players better than you and just keep playing as many and as often as you can. There is a limit you don't want to play to many that are miles ahead of you just mostly somewhat better than you. Then just keep playing until you get good enough to hang with them and when you get better than them find some more that are tougher.

I took a lot of losses in the process but it definitely improved my game, you can't be afraid of taking a lot of beat downs because it will improve your game it just takes time. I think lessons and drill and tennis camps are great to, but you have to play a lot of sets if you really want to improve.

I have seen a lot of players that think that endless lessons trying to perfect their strokes will make them great players but I have not seen this work very often. They look great in lessons when being fed with plenty of time and their strokes look so nice, but put them in a match and they do not look anywhere near as good.

So they think they need to take more lessons which is exactly what they don't need they need to play sets and more and more sets, then they can actually figure out how to play the game.

[TimothyO]

One very significant porblem with Mick's advice.

If all you do is "go out there and play" without instruction and advice you will most likely injure yourself, sometime permanently.

In fact, some of the safest and most effective ways to play tennis are NOT intuitive. And some of the most intuitive ways to hit are the MOST dangerous to wrist, elbow, and shoulder health. Just watch an untrained player serve and you'll see a "surgery patient to be".

I fully agree with Mick that court time is crucial. I quit one team because most of the guys would only show up on match day and then complain about getting their clocks cleaned. They literally wouldn't come to practice with a teaching pro or just hit casually. Meanwhile I was busting my butt many nights and even lunchtime to improve my serve and arranging practice sessions. Truly annoying.

There's no substitute for court time and match time but to make it efficient, safe, and beneficial it's best done with some thought and guidance by those with experience.

[isilra]

Originally Posted by Mick3391

Grow up! Quit whining, asking for advice, you going to be a star listening to our tips?

Go out there and be a man! I started playing at like 12 with my brother who was 21, I lost, lost, lost, but had desire, so got better and wipped him. Just go do your own thing or stop whining. Can't serve? Then PRACTICE! Poor forehand? PRACTICE!

There is no magical formula we can give you to lean, do what we did, that is work our tails off to get good, lose, win, win, lose, just fight through it. Run up to 5 miles, but also do sprints. Practice against a wall, just STOP with the "If I only hold my hand ......." nonsense.

I'm sorry, I just see so many wooses on this forum, can't play there is no suggestion for you except for you to play and learn yourself, how do you think we learned?

Even those who go to Tennis Academies only learn what they are taught, Tennis is much more than what you are taught, it's like boxing, unique to you.

I'm pretty sure you can learn all the staff that have been talked in that thread just by practicing your forehand;

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=446939

[sundaypunch]

Originally Posted by TimothyO

One very significant porblem with Mick's advice.

If all you do is "go out there and play" without instruction and advice you will most likely injure yourself, sometime permanently.

In fact, some of the safest and most effective ways to play tennis are NOT intuitive. And some of the most intuitive ways to hit are the MOST dangerous to wrist, elbow, and shoulder health. Just watch an untrained player serve and you'll see a "surgery patient to be".

I fully agree with Mick that court time is crucial. I quit one team because most of the guys would only show up on match day and then complain about getting their clocks cleaned. They literally wouldn't come to practice with a teaching pro or just hit casually. Meanwhile I was busting my butt many nights and even lunchtime to improve my serve and arranging practice sessions. Truly annoying.

There's no substitute for court time and match time but to make it efficient, safe, and beneficial it's best done with some thought and guidance by those with experience.

Anyone with an internet connection can log in here and give coaching advice. It doesn't take too long to figure out who the people are that know what they are talking about.

[goober]

Originally Posted by TimothyO

One very significant porblem with Mick's advice.

If all you do is "go out there and play" without instruction and advice you will most likely injure yourself, sometime permanently.

In fact, some of the safest and most effective ways to play tennis are NOT intuitive. And some of the most intuitive ways to hit are the MOST dangerous to wrist, elbow, and shoulder health. Just watch an untrained player serve and you'll see a "surgery patient to be".

I fully agree with Mick that court time is crucial. I quit one team because most of the guys would only show up on match day and then complain about getting their clocks cleaned. They literally wouldn't come to practice with a teaching pro or just hit casually. Meanwhile I was busting my butt many nights and even lunchtime to improve my serve and arranging practice sessions. Truly annoying.

There's no substitute for court time and match time but to make it efficient, safe, and beneficial it's best done with some thought and guidance by those with experience.

Besides injruy, 90% of people who go out and play tennis without any instruction will end up with

1) Pancake or waiter's grip serve
2) Ugly looking backhand
3) inability to volley consistently
4) bad overall form and footwork


You basically see the people all the time on public courts. Jake McClain was a perfect example.

If they play this way for long time they actually can get very consistent. Problem is that if they keep hitting the same way they can practice 10,000 hours and still be 3.5.

[tlm]

Originally Posted by goober

Besides injruy, 90% of people who go out and play tennis without any instruction will end up with

1) Pancake or waiter's grip serve
2) Ugly looking backhand
3) inability to volley consistently
4) bad overall form and footwork


You basically see the people all the time on public courts. Jake McClain was a perfect example.

If they play this way for long time they actually can get very consistent. Problem is that if they keep hitting the same way they can practice 10,000 hours and still be 3.5.

There is some truth to this but I don't think anyone said no instruction, certainly in every sport there is need for some instruction. Most of the players I know that get injured are experienced players with good technique but have gotten older and are not as physically sound as they should be.

Most instructors would say that rafas forehand is incorrect or roddicks serve, same with johnny macs serve. These guys made a lot of money with some unorthodox tennis techniques.

[Mick3391]

Originally Posted by TimothyO

One very significant porblem with Mick's advice.

If all you do is "go out there and play" without instruction and advice you will most likely injure yourself, sometime permanently.

In fact, some of the safest and most effective ways to play tennis are NOT intuitive. And some of the most intuitive ways to hit are the MOST dangerous to wrist, elbow, and shoulder health. Just watch an untrained player serve and you'll see a "surgery patient to be".

I fully agree with Mick that court time is crucial. I quit one team because most of the guys would only show up on match day and then complain about getting their clocks cleaned. They literally wouldn't come to practice with a teaching pro or just hit casually. Meanwhile I was busting my butt many nights and even lunchtime to improve my serve and arranging practice sessions. Truly annoying.

There's no substitute for court time and match time but to make it efficient, safe, and beneficial it's best done with some thought and guidance by those with experience.

You may be right about that, but I started at like 12 and never got injured aside from the typical scratches or falling down. In fact I've never been injured until this year at 38, and that is only because I guess time is catching up with me. I don't remember any kids on the team getting injured.

I wish everyone could start at 12 or younger, like most things I think it makes things easier, like when people say "Tennis is hard", I have no clue what that means, seems like I've always played so it's not hard.

Seems like when you are an adult and start, then it's hard. It's like computers, some things are difficult for me, but my son just does it like a second language, no problem. Something happens to people when we grow up I think, not sure why.

[TomT]

Well Mick3391, for an op that you said you thought about deleting after you posted it, it's elicited some pretty good comments, imo. I have to agree with the posters who said that qualified instruction really does help, and for some it's absolutely necessary.

But I also agree with what I take to be your main point(s), in that the key to improvement is work. That is, work without instruction sometimes results in improvement, but instruction without work doesn't.

Hope you're having a great holidays, and if you're ever in my area ... let's hit some tennis balls.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by 5263

Well I think most of us coaches have made the mistake of talking too much and/or giving too much advice. Hopefully we learn from it. Several have made good points that some amount of "good" instruction will help the time of progression, but.... too much, even good advice, will slow things down too.

Maybe it's a little like trying to get to the nearest town when you don't know
where it is. If some one can point you in the correct direction, that will normally help a bit.
On the other hand, if he gives you complex, detailed direction on getting there, with a few mistakes mixed in...you may be better off without him.

Wise observation, imo. Effective coaching/instructing skills seem to me like they would be very difficult to learn. I have a lot of respect for people who are able to analyze the game in depth and in ways that would never even occur to me -- and then communicate just the right stuff (which might take the form of "broad strokes, or the form of specific technical instructions) to somebody to improve their game (provided the student also puts in the necessary work).

[Mick3391]

Originally Posted by TomT

Well Mick3391, for an op that you said you thought about deleting after you posted it, it's elicited some pretty good comments, imo. I have to agree with the posters who said that qualified instruction really does help, and for some it's absolutely necessary.

But I also agree with what I take to be your main point(s), in that the key to improvement is work. That is, work without instruction sometimes results in improvement, but instruction without work doesn't.

Hope you're having a great holidays, and if you're ever in my area ... let's hit some tennis balls.

I would love to be in your area, and to hit with you

I think if I made a mistake it's only because I've used anecdotal evidence, that is I started at 12 playing my brother who was 21, and was just never taught, was never injured, and at 14 played starting Varsity, only thing I can remember being taught was in 9th grade my coach told me to hit my serve the second the ball drops, aside from that I just played, no one taught me how to hit any shot, and no I don't think I'm a natural. Maybe when you are a kid it's just easier like it is for kids today on computers.

I like what that one guy said, that you give direction, but not exact technical advice. You know, "Fire to their backhand as much as you can as numbers are on your side" as opposed to "Well run past the ball, stop, place your feet exactly like this, make sure you are holding the racquet just like this, and blah blah", what is taught may not be right for that person.

So I guess all I am saying is that yea generalities are great, but I don't think there is any substitute for playing, for trial and error, I just don't see tennis as a robotic thing that one piece of input can really help.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by Mick3391

I would love to be in your area, and to hit with you

Ok, hope that happens some day.

Originally Posted by Mick3391

So I guess all I am saying is that yea generalities are great, but I don't think there is any substitute for playing, for trial and error, I just don't see tennis as a robotic thing that one piece of input can really help.

I certainly agree with this. No substitute for concentrated court time. Just get out and WORK on stuff. It's really amazing what that can do for a person's game.

What do you think of this?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUdTxXkecr8

[Mick3391]

Originally Posted by TomT

Ok, hope that happens some day.

I certainly agree with this. No substitute for concentrated court time. Just get out and WORK on stuff. It's really amazing what that can do for a person's game.

What do you think of this?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUdTxXkecr8

First, I live in Seattle, so I'd LOVE to come to Florida, I used to live in Southern Cal, so it's much better playing in your weather than what I call "Water Tennis"! Plus you are a scientist, I'm fascinated by science, but I'm sure we'll never get down there, come up here and let's see how you do on the water!

Listening to your video I'm making notes, I disagree with his supposition, that is that sheer will of body can't make you play well, I don't believe that, I believe it's mental. As he's going on I agree totally, after I make a great play it's like "I did that"? I'm not thinking per se as I'm doing it. A guy interviewed Federer right after he destroyed this guy and he said "How did you do it, were you in what we call the zone", Federer said "I have no idea, I'd have to see the tape, I'm amazed myself". Same deal with boxers, after Leonard knocked out Ayub Kalu, I forget his name, but it was a beautiful three punch combination, they asked him about it and he said "I don't know what I did, I'd have to see the tape".

I believe Tennis is 100% mental, the mind see's pictures of other players, whether on TV or on court, it brings the body into the game, I mean when you are really doing well do you say to yourself as your opponent jams it over "Well I'm going to cut across the ball and hold my racquet just like this", or do you just do it?

John Wooden was a great basketball coach for I think it was UCLA. He'd have his team come out and shoot free throws, only thing is that they didn't use balls, they visualized the ball swishing each time. Well once he put a ball in their hands their free throws went way up. Same deal with Tennis, take a break and just watch Tennis, go back and you'll play better, because it's your brain taking over, then you will go back into making the same mistakes as before.

Recently at one of my sons tournaments, my friend and I just watched, it went on and on, so frustrating, they all played poor, I wanted to play SO BAD, I was just visualizing playing, when the tourney was over I grabbed a coach, man I felt unbeatable, every shot was PERFECT, EVERY ONE, I couldn't miss, I was so tired I almost passed out. That's visualization, I'm a big believer in it.

Yea that is a good video, getting 100 corrections hurts, doesn't help, same deal when you are playing, if aware of what you are doing you are thinking, and if thinking you aren't reacting, and if not reacting you are making mistakes. For example if I'm down game point, missed my first serve, I might think "Don't miss this", I have to wait until I clear my mind and just DO IT. If I think "If I miss this serve I lose", I will miss, guaranteed, so I have to do it.

You know I, until I started training my son and came on this forum NEVER THOUGHT about technique or what I do, I like I said always just played, when I tried to teach my son how to serve I didn't even know how I did it, I had to serve a few times and observe what I was doing.

[TennisCJC]

Originally Posted by Mick3391

You may be right about that, but I started at like 12 and never got injured aside from the typical scratches or falling down. In fact I've never been injured until this year at 38, and that is only because I guess time is catching up with me. I don't remember any kids on the team getting injured.

I wish everyone could start at 12 or younger, like most things I think it makes things easier, like when people say "Tennis is hard", I have no clue what that means, seems like I've always played so it's not hard.

Seems like when you are an adult and start, then it's hard. It's like computers, some things are difficult for me, but my son just does it like a second language, no problem. Something happens to people when we grow up I think, not sure why.

I am 56 yo and play with a variety of 4.5 females and 4.0-4.5 males. Most of us are between 35-65. Almost all the players 45 and older have had a significant injury from tennis. Several of these players played college level tennis. One of the players was a D1 all-American and he has had multiple knee surgeries. Tennis elbow is the most common, knee ACL and/or meniscus tears, ankle tendinitis, shoulder tendinitis and a variety of stains, pulls and tears are all very common. Most of these players use reasonably good technique and still suffer from over-use type injuries.

I play/practice 4-5 times a week but hard practice/play needs to be balanced with exercise (stretch and strengthen) and rest. Most hard core tennis players do a crappy job of rest because we are all a bit OCD additive about playing and tend to play too much and not rest enough in my view.

Anyhow, I have had 11 days off for the holidays and return to practice today.

[Coach Chad]

I also agree to an extent...a good coach helps inspire a person to develope a style suited to them...not the coaches style...this means a person must play, play, and play some more!