Does Modern Tennis Exist?

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

what is different now´is that the top100 strokes now all look virtually identical (apart from nadal maybe with his finish) because other strokes just cannot compete anymore.

I'd say, if graphite rackets were available 100 years ago, them classic players would be playing the same way in the top100 as today.

there is really nothing technically 'modern'... it's not rocket science to figure out that swinging across the ball provides more control and therefore allow the player to take a bigger cut.

however, I'd say there are still plenty of varieties in the top100 men... tomic, stepanek, and the retired santoro... they look more uniform now because of the condition - modern rackets, strings, and the fact that the surfaces are more uniform.

if we had faster grass and indoor surfaces, flatter/ linear strokes will come back, because these naturally lead player to the net, not sideways/backwards.

[luvforty]

on another thought... if rules say that only 65in wood is allowed, and they make the surface faster, and players have to wear long pants.... and we let this play out for a few years...

then, what will be the definition of 'modern' tennis? what will the top 100 play like?

[TCF]

===================

[tennis_balla]

A tennis coach should know all the details, and not really the player. That's why when you ask a top players certain questions they give vague answers. Reference points, cues, feelings etc and hours upon hours of training, on court and off. The coach behind the scenes knows exactly whats going on, and breaks it down into simple terms for his player to understand, especially when things are going well. However, there are lots of times where you need deeper analysis, especially when changing technique or correcting flaws. In that case, pictures speak a thousand words and video analysis is priceless. High speed video is even more valuable because the human eye misses many important factors at normal speeds. We only see at what? 30fps? That's pretty dismal

[JohnYandell]

Most of the debate over technique centers on the fundamental stroke of the forehand.

Let's start with some basic facts. In the pro game in a typical groundstroke exchange, there is about 1 second between the rackets. The ball leaves Fed's racket and 1 second later it leaves Nadal's, plus or minus.

As our research was the first to show, the ball loses about 50 percent or more of it's speed in this interval. If that wasn't true the speed of tennis would exceed human reaction capacity.

So on a forehand measured off the racket at 80mph, pros are actually hitting an incoming ball that is, say, traveling around 40mph, and they have at most a few tenths of second after the bounce in which to make contact.

But speed and time are not the only factors to consider in the nature of pro excahnges. The balls are leaving the racket on the top forehands with 2500rpm of spin or more. And the spin actually increases after the bounce. The bottom half of the ball grabs the court and the friction causes the top half to accelerate. After the bounce the spin can double. We've measured balls spinning at over 5000rpm before the contact.

So between the hits, the speed is halved and the spin is doubled. What does it all mean?

[arche3]

Originally Posted by tennis_balla

A tennis coach should know all the details, and not really the player. That's why when you ask a top players certain questions they give vague answers. Reference points, cues, feelings etc and hours upon hours of training, on court and off. The coach behind the scenes knows exactly whats going on, and breaks it down into simple terms for his player to understand, especially when things are going well. However, there are lots of times where you need deeper analysis, especially when changing technique or correcting flaws. In that case, pictures speak a thousand words and video analysis is priceless. High speed video is even more valuable because the human eye misses many important factors at normal speeds. We only see at what? 30fps? That's pretty dismal

I propose another topic for this forum. "Ballin with the Balla" is various ideas or tips from the "tennis balla" from the trenches of high performances tennis coaching. Live from Europe. Any observations of the international tennis climate as it applies to high level player coaching. From specific training trends to technical stroke philosophies.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

Most of the debate over technique centers on the fundamental stroke of the forehand.

Let's start with some basic facts. In the pro game in a typical groundstroke exchange, there is about 1 second between the rackets. The ball leaves Fed's racket and 1 second later it leaves Nadal's, plus or minus.

As our research was the first to show, the ball loses about 50 percent or more of it's speed in this interval. If that wasn't true the speed of tennis would exceed human reaction capacity.

So on a forehand measured off the racket at 80mph, pros are actually hitting an incoming ball that is, say, traveling around 40mph, and they have at most a few tenths of second after the bounce in which to make contact.

But speed and time are not the only factors to consider in the nature of pro excahnges. The balls are leaving the racket on the top forehands with 2500rpm of spin or more. And the spin actually increases after the bounce. The bottom half of the ball grabs the court and the friction causes the top half to accelerate. After the bounce the spin can double. We've measured balls spinning at over 5000rpm before the contact.

So between the hits, the speed is halved and the spin is doubled. What does it all mean?

I think it means the ball is freakin moving fast... The focus of a player at that level is to be able to still the mind and be able to slow down the perceived speed of the game. Every tennis player has felt this, when your mind is calm and you see the fastest balls slow and huge. Your sense of time is slowed. Its the zone. Every athlete has felt this.

[TCF]

==========================

[tennis_balla]

Originally Posted by arche3

I propose another topic for this forum. "Ballin with the Balla" is various ideas or tips from the "tennis balla" from the trenches of high performances tennis coaching. Live from Europe. Any observations of the international tennis climate as it applies to high level player coaching. From specific training trends to technical stroke philosophies.

haha thanks for the kind words but not interested. Too many threads get deleted or go way off track. I had a mod delete one of my last threads for this reason. Effort is put in and then wasted. I'd rather spend my energy on court.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by tennis_balla

haha thanks for the kind words but not interested. Too many threads get deleted or go way off track. I had a mod delete one of my last threads for this reason. Effort is put in and then wasted. I'd rather spend my energy on court.

Yeah. I can see how its frustrating to post some insight you feel is useful then having some guy on ttw that can barely hit 3 balls in a row start spewing that your obviously mistaken due to the influence of Jupiter on the rotation of the ball but only on slices.

[JohnYandell]

TCF,

I don't believe--correct me if I am wrong--Oscar acknowledges that this conclusion came from his attendance at a talk I did at the Open in 1998.

He approached me after the conference to discuss this. This is an example of the kind of appropriation I don't appreciate--especially when combined with his rejection or denial of so much of my other research that doesn't fit his theories.

And this one doesn't either. My point is that you have fractions of a second to make critical complex motions in the preparation and that the bulk of this must occur before the bounce.

More on this later. Going to see my cousin in Connecticut for a couple of days!

[JohnYandell]

Greg,

And thanks to you for the great words about Tennisplayer. The part about the quality means a lot.

[TCF]

============================

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by tennis_balla

A tennis coach should know all the details, and not really the player. That's why when you ask a top players certain questions they give vague answers. Reference points, cues, feelings etc and hours upon hours of training, on court and off. The coach behind the scenes knows exactly whats going on, and breaks it down into simple terms for his player to understand, especially when things are going well. However, there are lots of times where you need deeper analysis, especially when changing technique or correcting flaws. In that case, pictures speak a thousand words and video analysis is priceless. High speed video is even more valuable because the human eye misses many important factors at normal speeds. We only see at what? 30fps? That's pretty dismal

^^^This. End Thread

Coaching is equal parts Science and Art - the Science off court informs the Art on court.

[ATP100]

Easy Answer: NO

[Ash_Smith]

oh, and to answer John's original question - yes "Modern Tennis" does exist, but only in the same sense that "Modern Art" exists.

[dominikk1985]

BTW: is it possible to hit a slice that still has backspin after the bounce? Mr yandell said the ball gains spin as it bounces because the bottom stops on the ground, so it should not be possible to hit a slice that keeps backspinning after ground contact, right?

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

BTW: is it possible to hit a slice that still has backspin after the bounce? Mr yandell said the ball gains spin as it bounces because the bottom stops on the ground, so it should not be possible to hit a slice that keeps backspinning after ground contact, right?

it's certainly possible if the surface doesn't grab much... I can tell some of the hardest knifed slices do this because if you simply try to block back, ball goes into the net.

the bottom does NOT stop. it is slowed down.

if it stopped, it would not leave the skid ball marks on clay.... balls bounce higher on clay because the skid pushes the loose dirt into a little hump, and the ball then climbs up the hump when it leaves the ground.

[Avles]

Originally Posted by luvforty

balls bounce higher on clay because the skid pushes the loose dirt into a little hump, and the ball then climbs up the hump when it leaves the ground.

At risk of going way off topic-- is this really true? I've never heard this explanation before, and it sounds kind of implausible...

[max]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

^^^This. End Thread

Coaching is equal parts Science and Art - the Science off court informs the Art on court.

I think communication is the secret: being able to get a message across to different kinds of people using different ways; for some, visual, for others, metaphorical, and yet others, very plain language technical.