Video hitting some serves - critique wanted

[psv255]

Originally Posted by toly

Lack of forearm supination in OP serve doesn’t allow him to use arm pronation. That’s why he loses around 50% of RHS. Proof can be found in tread http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=361610. So, forearm supination is very important!!!

Anatoly, we all understand that supination is important. But when you want someone to to be able to pronate, you don't tell them to intentionally supinate! You can give them an easier tip that enables them to accomplish this, but it has to be along the lines of what Power Player and Cheetah have already said, not just "supinate more."

So you have established that OP isn't able to pronate because he isn't supinating. But you might be pointing out a minor point in a bigger problem in technique.

[Power Player]

Originally Posted by psv255

Anatoly, we all understand that supination is important. But when you want someone to to be able to pronate, you don't tell them to intentionally supinate! You can give them an easier tip that enables them to accomplish this, but it has to be along the lines of what Power Player and Cheetah have already said, not just "supinate more."

So you have established that OP isn't able to pronate because he isn't supinating. But you might be pointing out a minor point in a bigger problem in technique.

Exactly, well said. I have never met a great tennis player that can describe how he hits like some of the people on these boards.

[zapvor]

i see this thread has gone off track

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by zapvor

i see this thread has gone off track

yes it has. Can we please end the nonsensical debate about pronation and supination. Yes it's important, but please take that stuff to another thread.
That's not what this thread is about. Its about what practical steps I (or anyone else like me) can take to improve their serve.

As far as my serve goes, I have begun taking some small steps and will post more video soon to see if I am on the right track. Some of the small adjustments I am attempting to make:

-keep the motion moving and flowing...no stops or hitches.
-better platform to start...no "happy feet"
-more consistent and smoother toss...into the court to the right more
-keep the palm downward...no "waiters tray"
-more "cartwheel" motion
-lead with the edge more and pronate into the ball more

this is plenty to work on and I think will get me moving in the right direction.
one thing I am REALLY struggling with is getting more racquet drop. I don't know if its a lack of flexibility, but it's really tough for me to get my elbow up high. I may just have to accept this isn't too fixable?

[ShoeShiner]

Originally Posted by JackB1

. . .
http://www.revolutionarytennis.com/step12_4.html
. . .

Thank you for a good link.

[psv255]

Originally Posted by JackB1

yes it has. Can we please end the nonsensical debate about pronation and supination. Yes it's important, but please take that stuff to another thread.
...
this is plenty to work on and I think will get me moving in the right direction.
one thing I am REALLY struggling with is getting more racquet drop. I don't know if its a lack of flexibility, but it's really tough for me to get my elbow up high. I may just have to accept this isn't too fixable?

Sorry for contributing to the derailment.

As for racquet drop, don't concern yourself with getting your elbow high.
A better image to keep in mind might be leading with the elbow; that would put your arm/racquet in a better position leading up to contact. At this point, looking at your first videos frame by frame, what's really hindering your racquet drop is that the elbow isn't coming forward before the hand&racquet (I guess this is "waiter's tray"?).

Can't tell how relaxed you are, but stay as loose as you possibly can.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by psv255

Sorry for contributing to the derailment.

As for racquet drop, don't concern yourself with getting your elbow high.
A better image to keep in mind might be leading with the elbow; that would put your arm/racquet in a better position leading up to contact. At this point, looking at your first videos frame by frame, what's really hindering your racquet drop is that the elbow isn't coming forward before the hand&racquet (I guess this is "waiter's tray"?).

Can't tell how relaxed you are, but stay as loose as you possibly can.

I will try leading with the elbow more. Being relaxed is definitely key and something I struggle with.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by JackB1

... this thread is ... about what practical steps I (or anyone else like me) can take to improve their serve.

As far as my serve goes, I have begun taking some small steps and will post more video soon to see if I am on the right track. Some of the small adjustments I am attempting to make:

-keep the motion moving and flowing...no stops or hitches.
-better platform to start...no "happy feet"
-more consistent and smoother toss...into the court to the right more
-keep the palm downward...no "waiters tray"
-more "cartwheel" motion
-lead with the edge more and pronate into the ball more

In addition to the considerations you mention above, one of the things I've been doing that has increased both the consistency and speed of my serve is focusing on relaxing both my grip and my wrist. Focusing mainly on a very relaxed wrist snap.

I'll try to remember to post some vids of what I'm talking about.

[JackB1]

is there any secret or key getting a deeper racquet drop?
Is it a flexibility issue? If 60 yr old Brent Able can do it, why can't I?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs1JF...jnrmEykMHt3-Yk

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by JackB1

is there any secret or key getting a deeper racquet drop?
Is it a flexibility issue? If 60 yr old Brent Able can do it, why can't I?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs1JF...jnrmEykMHt3-Yk

it's not flexibility.

Jack you are trying to swing up face on... that's causing the waiter tray position and you can't drop it deep.

start the swing edge on. this will allow you to drop deep.

forget about the tennis serve for a second... just scratch your back as if it's itching... notice how you use the edge instead of the face.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by luvforty

it's not flexibility.

Jack you are trying to swing up face on... that's causing the waiter tray position and you can't drop it deep.

start the swing edge on. this will allow you to drop deep.

forget about the tennis serve for a second... just scratch your back as if it's itching... notice how you use the edge instead of the face.

I feel like I am not doing the waiter tray anymore...I am keeping the palm from facing upwards, but still have a hard time getting that racquet to drop down my back. I'll try and take some more video today to see what I'm still doing wrong.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by JackB1

I feel like I am not doing the waiter tray anymore...I am keeping the palm from facing upwards, but still have a hard time getting that racquet to drop down my back. I'll try and take some more video today to see what I'm still doing wrong.

I stopped your video in the drop. Your not doing waiter tray. It looks pretty deep too so all in all its good and smooth. If you bend your knees more now and as you lift the racket will drop more. If you have knee issues then I think it looks plenty deep enough.

[Power Player]

Jack, the left hand plays a huge role in the serve and can help with everything. Make sure and pay note to it. As for racquet drop, it takes some time to get that feel. I used to rush my motion and not drop my racquet deep enough because I could get away with it, but tossing higher helped. Also puling my left hand into the middle of my chest got my shoulders to cartwheel properly every time, and also gave me a deeper drop.

An easy drill you can do in your house is to serve, but stop before you swing up. Look at your buttcap and adjust it so it is pointing up in the air. Look at your left hand and make sure you are pulling it into your body to initiate the drop and the swing to contact. Get the feel for that and then work it in when you practice your serve.

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by toly

Definition: The Target Plane is the plane that includes the tennis ball at contact and the imaginary target inside of the deuce or ad tennis court. This plane should be parallel to the perpendicular to the racquet string bed during the impact. The Target Plane basically determines the boll velocity direction. We shouldn’t change amount of the arm pronation, because it is almost impossible to control, in order to change boll’s direction. It’s much easier to alter direction of the Target Plane. Always keep the range of the arm pronation around 90°.

Let’s analyze Stosur and your arm actions before contact.



In pic.1 Stosur longitude axis of the racquet is parallel to Target Plane. In pic.3 longitude axis is perpendicular to the Target plane. She rotates her racquet by using internal shoulder rotation (ISR) around 90°.

In pic.4 longitude axis of your racquet is already perpendicular to Target Plane. Thus you cannot use, before contact, internal shoulder rotation at all. That’s why you apply ISR after contact, but that doesn’t make any sense. With this technique you never are going to get powerful and consistent serve.

i think toly's analysis can also explain the shallow drop... notice that stosur drops into the slot in a way the her hand goes back somewhere between her right ear and right shoulder.

Jack, your hand is OUTSIDE of your right shoulder.... it's humanly impossible to achieve deep drop that way.

I think you can try to feel the other extreme this way... imagine your right hand holds a comb and will comb the back of your head... this will allow you to feel how to bring the hand more inside (of the shoulder), to allow you drop deeper into the slot.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by arche3

I stopped your video in the drop. Your not doing waiter tray...

What do you call frame #4 above?

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by arche3

I stopped your video in the drop. Your not doing waiter tray. It looks pretty deep too so all in all its good and smooth. If you bend your knees more now and as you lift the racket will drop more. If you have knee issues then I think it looks plenty deep enough.

no I don't have any knee issues. I usually don't do a big knee bend/jump because it tends to throw off my consistency and placement. I will give it a try and see if it helps the racquet drop.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

What do you call frame #4 above?

I only looked at one. And only one spot. And I think the toly pic w frame 4 is from old video. I was looking at a new one. In think some threads got merged.

[JackB1]

I watched again and used the pause/right arrow to go thru slow and I think I see the root of the problem. Everything looks pretty good up until the trophy pose, but as I start to go up after the ball, for some reason I lay back my wrist and the racquet goes from facing the back fence to facing upwards. It's this initial move that must be fixed. Anyone else agree?

watch this
http://youtu.be/XrRK9UVolBQ

[luvforty]

yeah pretty much.. wrist should be flat at trophy, also flat at racket drop.... but the reason for that is your hand is too much outside of the shoulder, so the shoulder is locked up and the racket went back by itself, which causes the wrist to lay back

[Cheetah]

i don't really agree. I'm in the 'you should rebuild' group.

There are numerous important fundamental things that you are not doing.
For one, the serve has to have a rhythm. Yours doesn't have a rhythm from the start so that manifests itself later on at several points in the swing.

For example, ideally there shouldn't be any pauses or hitches. Easier said than done I know but I count 4 pauses/hitches in your swing. When you first set up their is a small hitch where you're holding the ball out in front still. You set, start and then stop very slightly and then start again. Then after you toss there is another pause. Then as your getting ready to swing there is a small pause and then very quickly after that there is another one. Each time you pause you lose stored energy and you have to expend energy to hold some other body part in place. That means muscles are tightening. Then you have to use more energy to restart those stopped parts and then things are out of sync. Also your knee bend is too late. You should be going down in sync with the toss.

Also your feet are messy. You start in a platform and then move into a pinpoint which is ok but it's not a smooth transition. You move your right foot forward and put it next to the left. You might want to consider dragging the right foot here up to the left which a lot of ppl do. It's smoother. It has momentum. You just place it there which is ok but when you place it there your whole body kind of stops. Then instead of using that position as your base you move your left foot away from the right foot. And then sometimes you adjust one or both feet again after that. That's a lot of shuffling.

You're not pointing at the ball with your left hand. It's extended up but it's not pointing. You should point up at the ball for as long as possible. This also gets you into having a cartwheel motion. You don't have any cartwheel shoulder action going on which is like wta serves. You also don't have any torque. Pete and Roger have their torso twisted and facing further past the side fence towards the back fence. Your torso is facing the side fence. Their legs are bent and on their toes and springy and their weight is loaded. Your legs are straight, knees locked and flat footed. They start the swing by pushing off their legs using ground forces. You start with your arm and then bend and push off the legs. Their left shoulder is up and right shoulder down (cartwheel beginning). Your shoulders are horizontal. They go towards the ball with the butt of the racquet and hit the ball as their body is going up. You go at the ball with the strings and slap the ball as your body is falling down.

If you stop your vid at 24s here you are holding the racquet way to far to the right of your body as you toss. Also your palm and the strings are facing the net. They should be facing the side fence. This is contributing to the waiter's tray. Also your elbow is all the way down to hip level. It has to be much higher. And you should be leading the upward swing with your elbow.




Fed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xbC31AQqSg&t=37s

If I were you i'd work on getting the feet figured out because that's the start. Then work on getting into a pretty trophy position. Then work on smoothness. That way things will work themselves out.

Or you can band-aid everything