'Waiter's tray' - Definition? What is the arm position?

[moopie]

Originally Posted by JackB1

so here is the question....at what point SHOULD the racquet and palm MOMENTARILY point to the sky? Because it HAS to at some point in the serve as you start the forward part of the swing.

Hey Jack, interesting question. As your video and picture evidence shows, the palm does face straight up for a moment as the racket drops behind the head. But at the same time never does the racket face actually become a "waiter's tray" because if it was a waiter's tray all the drinks would fall off.

So for your question, I'd say the palm while the racket is behind the head, but never the racket face, at least not straight up.

Thinking about it some more, in a continental grip, the palm and the face of the racket are not facing the same way. That would be an eastern forehand grip.

[SystemicAnomaly]

Originally Posted by JackB1

so here is the question....at what point SHOULD the racquet and palm MOMENTARILY point to the sky? Because it HAS to at some point in the serve as you start the forward part of the swing.

Yeah, I agree that 5263 is correct on this. While the palm may face the sky for some servers on the racket head drop, it does not happen on the upward/forward swing for elite players at all.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by rkelley

Waiter's tray refers to a racquet position during the serve where the face is parallel to the ground and the racquet is pointing backwards at the beginning of the forward swing. The racquet could act as a "waiter's tray" holding food and drinks. The racquet face sweeps up 90° to impact.

You usually get this position by using an E. fh grip on the serve. The serves can be quite fast, well into the 100 mph range, but they'll rarely go in at that speed because this type of serve produces no spin on the ball. The window between getting it over the net and hitting long is almost zero. The waiter's tray also telegraphs the direction of the serve so the receiver can start moving to where the serve is going before the ball is even struck (10s of milliseconds, but at +100 mph that much time counts).

Also, since this type of swing can't produce much spin, there person likely has no second serve to speak of, so they have to bunt it over.

Very observant points, imho.

I'm a 3.0 player. Here's a couple vids of my serves. In the first, I don't think I'm getting into the waiter position. In the second, I think I am. But it's very fleeting because I have a very fast and fluid motion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T6PIuxavp8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onGcaItUVZM

But, contrary to what you say, I do have a very effective second serve. No bunting it over. It's almost as fast as my first serve, and generally sliced. Very unusual for my level of play, and very effective. For example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2SlPsVFVQE

[TomT]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

Yeah, I agree that 5263 is correct on this. While the palm may face the sky for some servers on the racket head drop, it does not happen on the upward/forward swing for elite players at all.

Agree. Though I'm a comptetitively low level player, I think I do have a fairly good classic serving motion. In looking again at my serves, I notice that even though I sometimes get into the waiter position, it's quite transitory, and on the upswing the racquet face is perpendicular to the plane of the court. This all happens very fast because I don't have a conventional modern serving style, but rather a very quick classic serving style.

[5263]

Originally Posted by TomT

Agree. Though I'm a comptetitively low level player, I think I do have a fairly good classic serving motion. In looking again at my serves, I notice that even though I sometimes get into the waiter position, it's quite transitory, and on the upswing the racquet face is perpendicular to the plane of the court. This all happens very fast because I don't have a conventional modern serving style, but rather a very quick classic serving style.

You don't do it in a way I would call you on it.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by 5263

You don't do it in a way I would call you on it.

Ok, but I think I have a pretty good idea what to do to improve both the velocity and spin of my serve. It's just that my current physical capabilities are hampering the realization of that.

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by JackB1

http://m221.photobucket.com/albumvie...C96B7.jpg.html

Good find JackB1.

Can most of us agree point-by-point to these? --

1) Edge-On. That having the racket edge-on toward the impact point just after the arm is up & straight is a common characteristic of the current strongest servers. We can check this point in high speed videos of pros.

2) WTE. Having the racket face facing the sky after the arm is up & straight is not a characteristic of current strong servers. We can check this point in high speed videos.

3) Not WTE. Some combination of grip and joint motions might have the racket face pointing toward the sky prior to the arm's being up & straight for the strongest servers (as JackB1 proved). This point could be checked farther in high speed videos. But JackB1's frame looks good and we might assume that we could find more examples, some maybe with timing variation on when the racket face faces the sky.

4) WTE. We might agree that with the arm up & straight and a racket face facing the sky that - at that point - we have Waiter's Tray Error.

5) Possible WTE. The grips and sequence of joint motions that occur at times before the arm is up & straight are not so obvious and we need more research and description for WTE to become clear and unambiguous.

6) WTE Cause? The most important and interesting thing is the murky sequence of joint motions preceding the time when the arm is up & straight..................

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by TomT

Ok, but I think I have a pretty good idea what to do to improve both the velocity and spin of my serve. It's just that my current physical capabilities are hampering the realization of that.

CORRECTION: I looked at the slow motion of your first two videos again and now see that your upper arm looks in line with the line between your shoulders. Your elbow has a considerable angle in it.......

Have you seen the Todd Ellenbecker video on the shoulder, serving and minimizing impingement risk? The angle between the line between your shoulders and your upper arm might be too large in my opinion.

Check out the Ellenbecker video. Search in the TW Health & Fitness forum: Ellenbecker + shoulder + impingement.

I wish I had your slice serve....

[5263]

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

Have you seen the Todd Ellenbecker video on the shoulder, serving and minimizing impingement risk? The angle between the line between your shoulders and your upper arm might be too large in my opinion.

Check out the Ellenbecker video. Search in the TW Health & Fitness forum: Ellenbecker + shoulder + impingement.

I wish I had your slice serve....

Seems large angle is good....am I getting it backwards?

[LeeD]

Momentary tray position during the moving loop is fine, if it's momentary and moving.
Trophy starts with both racket and toss hand up towards the sky.

[Chas Tennis]

-------duplicate------

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by 5263

Seems large angle is good....am I getting it backwards?

See correction in reply #8.

Best to view the Ellenbecker video as I could misinterpret. At minute 8 he describes the shoulder orientation to minimize the risk of impingement.

http://www.tennisresources.com/index...2&ATT=&reso=hi

Think of the line between the two shoulders and the line of the upper arm. If those lines fell in a straight line, the angle is 180°, and the shoulder internally rotates (upper arm axial rotation) well and impingement risk is low. As the upper arm rises relative to the shoulders the risk increases. I have read that 170° is still OK. Let's say that it is higher than recommended, at 150° for example - then there is more risk of impingement.

You can also visualize the angle by extending the shoulder-shoulder line and considering the complementary angle. Then for example, 0° is upper arm straight out, 10° is the upper arm up slightly and still OK, 30° is the upper arm up and at increased risk of impingement.

I see many players serving well beyond the 10°.

The shoulder orientation requires lateral trunk flexion which may stress the back for some people.

[luvforty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgdXawklcZk

pat explains this issue well.

and like Chas said.... which one is the bigger evil, do you kill your back to go chest up, or do you kill your shoulder otherwise. lol.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by moopie

Hey Jack, interesting question. As your video and picture evidence shows, the palm does face straight up for a moment as the racket drops behind the head. But at the same time never does the racket face actually become a "waiter's tray" because if it was a waiter's tray all the drinks would fall off.

So for your question, I'd say the palm while the racket is behind the head, but never the racket face, at least not straight up.

Thinking about it some more, in a continental grip, the palm and the face of the racket are not facing the same way. That would be an eastern forehand grip.

I wonder if my serve grip is slipping towards Eastern as I serve and not staying in Continental? Interesting point about it being impossible to have both pointing up unless you are in Eastern.

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

Yeah, I agree that 5263 is correct on this. While the palm may face the sky for some servers on the racket head drop, it does not happen on the upward/forward swing for elite players at all.

So is that the "key"? Not to let the palm face up on the forward/upward part of the serve?

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by luvforty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgdXawklcZk

pat explains this issue well.

and like Chas said.... which one is the bigger evil, do you kill your back to go chest up, or do you kill your shoulder otherwise. lol.

In my interpretation of the Ellenbecker video the issue involves putting the ball of the humerus and attached tissue (supraspinatus tendon, bursa sack?...) in a more confined space under the acromion and then doing the very violent and perhaps sometimes wobbly internal shoulder rotation as shown in this serve video.
https://vimeo.com/27528701

The space under the acromion is more confined if the upper arm is high and at the wrong angle.

Acromion illustrations
https://www.google.com/search?q=acro...w=1312&bih=703

Are there any Pat Dougherty videos where he discusses the part played by 'internal shoulder rotation' on the serve?

[JackB1]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Momentary tray position during the moving loop is fine, if it's momentary and moving.
Trophy starts with both racket and toss hand up towards the sky.

I thought the racquet face should be facing the side fence at Trophy pose?

[Dimcorner]

I'm totally lost on these positions without pictures :\

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ Which positions are you referrring to? There are a couple of images and links on the first page of this thread.

Originally Posted by JackB1

So is that the "key"? Not to let the palm face up on the forward/upward part of the serve?

I would think of it as having the racket head moving on-edge as it moves upward from the racket head drop (upward from the so-called, back scratch). It is still on-edge at the "big L". As the racket head moves upward from there, the orientation of the racket face changes with forearm pronation (and ISR). If you lead with the edge on the way up from the "scratch" loop, the palm will never face upward.

Note that a semi-continental grip (between the conti and the Easter Fh grip) can also be employed without committing a WTE. Boris Becker, Serena Williams and others have used this grip on first serves w/o a WTE issue.

[Chas Tennis]

There are many illustrations in the links in this thread.

Many threads involve discussions and arguments by interested and observant parties that involve poorly defined terms like WTE that are defined somehow in the collective tennis wisdom................

In this thread see reply #162.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showt...=448202&page=6

The first illustration with the arm up gets my vote as to what Waiter's Tray Error is or should be - a significant and wrong orientation of the racket face that ruins the service motion flow and significantly slows racket head speed. Obviously, the error began before this arm up position......... See SystemicAnomaly Reply #7 for a crystal clear illustration of the arm up racket orientation.

The next two pro illustrations in the other thread with labels "1" and "2" show the racket faces also oriented to the sky but appear to be earlier during the service motion. They are called by Toly also Waiter's Tray. JackB1 found the same orientation in relpy #17 in this thread. Other people in this thread are discussing other racket head positions and whether they consider them to be WTE. Since some bad serves and some strong serves have the racket face point to the sky at various points during the motion, it is difficult to resolve the discussion. Good luck if you want illustrations for all the possible WTEs.

I started this thread to discuss what Waiter's Tray means or should mean and to get a location in the service motion at which WTE is/should be defined.