Modern Tennis Tips by Oscar Wegner

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by 5263

Not so much when you start them with Open stance as we do.

I was responding to Oscar's post. He has changed his tune that footwork is natural by now talking about the virtues of landing on the outside foot. If it is natural, there would have been no need to point it out. It is good that he now understands the importance of footwork.

Please do not interfere when I am responding to his posts by posting partial quotes.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by AbsolutTennis

I really find it interesting that people have here used the “theory X actual results” approach many times, but have actually failed to observe that Oscar has been able to back his theories with actual results… And the other way around… People really seem to forget that his techniques and approaches were REALLY used by Gustavo Kuerten (including the drill OW has just suggested to Raul_SJ). People also seem to forget that Bjorn Borg (ANOTHER #1 player in the world) looked for Oscar’s help and advice when he tried a comeback. I would think Guga and Borg can recognize what’s good and what’s not when talking about tennis related techniques… People ALSO seem to forget, or pretend they don’t know, that Richard Williams acknowledged the fact that he used Oscar’s videos when coaching his daughters…So much for facts and results, huh? You CANNOT contest and/or argue against FACTS!!!! Meanwhile, some people prefer to spend time discussing the sex of the angels (instead of generating results ON A TENNIS COURT)…

Serena does not have a short take back and an abrupt acceleration just before contact. She often has a big take back (so big sometimes the racket is behind the body). Clearly the facts about her play do nto indicate waiting late and hitting with small take back. Such shots will generate no power. In another thread, I had posted videos to illustrate how different her backhand is from what Oscar was advising someone.

The other "facts" have been discussed many times - I don't want to discuss them any more.

[TCF]

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[TCF]

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[sureshs]

Originally Posted by TCF

He does not say everything is natural and nothing must be taught. Far from the truth. He says tennis movement is mostly natural, run like you run. Especially as players advance in levels though, he says to add more details depending on what they are lacking.

I did not teach my daughter when age 4 and just learning the forehand to land on the outside foot. But as she mastered certain aspects of tennis and advanced, we added it in. Other students of mine did end up landing on the outside foot naturally.

Its situational but he is right overall, tennis movement is mostly natural. Tonlars said he could not remember a single time a coach taught him footwork, and he is as good a player we have on the board.

I was also never taught anything by anybody. Well, almost. But I don't go about saying that Murray should not have a coach. Footwork is an integral part of all coaching that I have seen. Obviously, it is not the only thing - that kind of notion is only a strawman. Some people like Tonlars have great footwork by themselves, others like the slightly more successful Masha have described specific footwork training she undertakes. I don't take one example and generalize with it.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by TCF

Thats not what the poster said, he said Richard has said he used Oscar's materials. That is fact.

No student incorporates everything one coach teaches them. A pro many times has many coaches through the years.

And yes, Serena does accelerate right before contact.

Every pro accelerates before contact. It is a proven fact. The acceleration actually decreases before contact - but it is still acceleration.

The videos show that her large swing is building up the speed. There is no slow movement of the frame to "catch" the ball and then a rapid acceleration just before contact. Of course, there is acceleration before contact - have we not discussed the speed vs position plots many many times?

[sureshs]

Another thing in relation to the outside foot placement mentioned by Oscar: the first big step followed by small adjustment steps. This is a key difference between juniors and club adults. I saw it the day before the break, when a coach was conducting a women's clinic. The natural instinct to take a small first step, and then panic and use big steps when they realize they are not close to the ball. This tendency has to be reversed by learning. A more advanced use of footwork seen with the pros and college players is how the outside foot plant is also used to bounce back for recovery in a smooth motion. Club players have a discontinuity after hitting a wide shot and before recovery. Pros use an energy efficient continuous motion to use the foot planting to also fuel the recovery back to the court.

[Wegner]

Just to clarify what I mean by yanking the ball across, it is meant, an abrupt change of direction and the application of force through acceleration. This implies the tightening of certain muscles. My contention is that the hand pulls into the body as in bending or contraction or shortening of a length (arm), rather than separating the hand from the body, as in extension of the arm.

And regarding the landing on the outside foot, I have seen it happen naturally even while just catching a ball or an object tossed to the side of a person. Nobody turns completely sideways to catch, unless they must cover a significant distance. In general, people prefer to catch in an open stance.

The open stance promotes both the loading on the outside foot and the yanking of the ball. You have more strength this way to achieve a forceful action through the ball. The racquet may slow down at impact because it encounters the ball, but immediately increases speed (in a modern stroke), a proof that the player is still within that forceful acceleration).

And yes, the so-called unit turn exists, but it happens to occur also naturally by keeping the non-playing hand on the racquet. All my players in Spain, Brazil, USA and other places used it to aid the movement and to aid the stroke. It works like a twisted spring, it want to straighten out.

Although I cover these concepts in my videos, I need to shoot more video instruction to elaborate on these premises precisely comparing it with the opposite viewpoint.

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by Wegner

Just to clarify what I mean by yanking the ball across, it is meant, an abrupt change of direction and the application of force through acceleration. This implies the tightening of certain muscles. My contention is that the hand pulls into the body as in bending or contraction or shortening of a length (arm), rather than separating the hand from the body, as in extension of the arm.

2 questions -

1) does the contraction applies to a straight arm FH (e.g. Federer)? seems quite awkward to try it.

2) in the case of a bent arm FH, e.g. Joker, is the contraction a purposeful action to shorten the arm, or is it just a reaction to the centrifugal force... in other words, during the core rotation, if the arm is bent to start with, and if you don't contract, it will straighten out and ruin the rotation.

thanks.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Wegner

Just to clarify what I mean by yanking the ball across, it is meant, an abrupt change of direction and the application of force through acceleration. This implies the tightening of certain muscles. My contention is that the hand pulls into the body as in bending or contraction or shortening of a length (arm), rather than separating the hand from the body, as in extension of the arm.

And regarding the landing on the outside foot, I have seen it happen naturally even while just catching a ball or an object tossed to the side of a person. Nobody turns completely sideways to catch, unless they must cover a significant distance. In general, people prefer to catch in an open stance.

The open stance promotes both the loading on the outside foot and the yanking of the ball. You have more strength this way to achieve a forceful action through the ball. The racquet may slow down at impact because it encounters the ball, but immediately increases speed (in a modern stroke), a proof that the player is still within that forceful acceleration).

And yes, the so-called unit turn exists, but it happens to occur also naturally by keeping the non-playing hand on the racquet. All my players in Spain, Brazil, USA and other places used it to aid the movement and to aid the stroke. It works like a twisted spring, it want to straighten out.

Although I cover these concepts in my videos, I need to shoot more video instruction to elaborate on these premises precisely comparing it with the opposite viewpoint.

Not turning sideways is not the same as moving outside foot out first. In real life, many people either do a small cross step without turning sideways completely, or worse, keep the outside foot planted and bend over sideways. Like knee bend, it is not obvious. All movers will tell you that a heavy object is to picked up with a knee bend, not a waist bend, but it does not come easily to others.

The easiest way to see the natural tendency is on a FH volley. Heck, I took two group clinics last week (only way I could play) and this matter came up again. There were some who would "catch" a volley open stance moving outside foot out, and others who would step across closed stance. To each, that movement is natural. Every coach seems to have an opinion about which one is correct. Point is, natural tendency works both ways when catching a ball with a racket. The analogy of catching an object is not very apt, because a person may adopt an open stance with outside foot out if his job is only to catch. But if he is required to hit the ball back immediately, he will also think about how to generate force, and that might drive him sideways.

You are not catching a ball in tennis. When a fielder catches a baseball, he might do it open stance, but he will turn sideways to generate power to throw it. He will typically not do both motions open stance.

Regarding the yanking as a shortening process, I am not sure. The Federer forehand seems to start with a supination of the forearm, then the forearm tucking into the body, followed by a very straight arm towards impact with wrist perpendicular to arm, followed by bending of the elbow for the across finish. I see both a "shortening" of the arm towards the body followed by a lengthening for a straight arm, followed by a bend. The yanking seems to be the consequence of a fast swing and finish across the body.

[Povl Carstensen]

Well Federer seems to pull across here, especially when he wants to inject more power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjBXVQyiwg

[Dragan]

I frequently thought about what would be the most natural and the most efficient way to execute forehand stroke, to start with.

For example, if you have an old or broken racquet, it's relatively easy to expeiment with different stances and swinging patterns, by throwing the racquet as far as possible while trying to aim in particular direction (i.e. achieving both racquet speed and accuracy).

The analogy with throwing racquet is known for service motions, so I'm quite eager to try it with forehand stroke, too, and see what stance and swing pattern feels the most natural for me.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Povl Carstensen

Well Federer seems to pull across here, especially when he wants to inject more power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjBXVQyiwg

Without the across pull, how would the racket come across? The key is to see how the racket face is perpendicular to the target direction at contact. That is what imparts the power.

[guitarplayer]

Originally Posted by Povl Carstensen

Well Federer seems to pull across here, especially when he wants to inject more power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTjBXVQyiwg

I have this saved and it is a perfect example of starting the swing slowly and then accelerating through impact and finishing across your body. Makes the swing effortless doesn't it!!! Not like the rigid swings of most hackers.

People who worry about footwork or those who try to do split steps etc crack me up. Do you focus on your footwork when you walk to a specific point? Do you think about starting with the left foot or right foot???? NO NO NO..you just freaking run to where the ball is!

Some people try to over complicate that which happens naturally. Thus..these people have many mechanical problems. I see it on the golf course every day.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by guitarplayer

People who worry about footwork or those who try to do split steps etc crack me up. Do you focus on your footwork when you walk to a specific point? Do you think about starting with the left foot or right foot???? NO NO NO..you just freaking run to where the ball is!

I agree. It really cracked me up to see Federer split step before every forehand in the video below. I am thinking, does he worry about his footwork when walking? No he just freaking runs to the ball. That is why people like you and me who don't split step will always be the at the top of the ATP while these so-called pros focus on split-stepping and footwork.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc

[arche3]

Originally Posted by sureshs

I agree. It really cracked me up to see Federer split step before every forehand in the video below. I am thinking, does he worry about his footwork when walking? No he just freaking runs to the ball. That is why people like you and me who don't split step will always be the at the top of the ATP while these so-called pros focus on split-stepping and footwork.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc

I think the issue is you are just a terrible tennis player. Nobody thinks about split stepping when you can actually play. You do it automatically.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by arche3

I think the issue is you are just a terrible tennis player. Nobody thinks about split stepping when you can actually play. You do it automatically.

Yeah and it doesn't happen by itself at first. That is the point. It happens by instruction, or in my case, by subconscious absorption from high-level players (at least on the serve, working on the other shots). To dismiss split-stepping as never requiring instruction or pointing out by someone is a joke, and is an insult to the proven coaches out there who have mentioned it in innumerable articles.

If you don't even understand that, then there is really no point.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Yeah and it doesn't happen by itself at first. That is the point. It happens by instruction, or in my case, by subconscious absorption from high-level players (at least on the serve, working on the other shots). To dismiss split-stepping as never requiring instruction or pointing out by someone is a joke, and is an insult to the proven coaches out there who have mentioned it in innumerable articles.

If you don't even understand that, then there is really no point.

I taught my son to split step when he was 7. I think 2 weeks later he never needed a reminder. I was told around the same time. It is pretty much not needed after a couple weeks of practice. Whats the point? U still need reminders?

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by arche3

I taught my son to split step when he was 7. I think 2 weeks later he never needed a reminder. I was told around the same time. It is pretty much not needed after a couple weeks of practice. Whats the point?

That is the point.

The point is not to laugh at those who try to split step. Like someone laughing at your son when he was 7. Like the previous poster said he does.

Get it?

The other point is not to derail Oscar's threads by posting stuff like what you and the other poster are doing.

You guys are giving him a bad name. When he says footwork is natural, he probably means not overdoing it like the detailed USTA diagrams from the 1920s. You guys are giving him a bad name by confusing people about split-stepping and then admitting you are yourself teaching that. This derails the thread.

[user92626]

It basically boils down to laziness. Most people just get lazy to keep split stepping, moving their feet and fixing their eyes on the ball and moving early. These are all easy stuffs which can be mastered in no time. But people are just lazy!!