'Waiter's tray' - Definition? What is the arm position?

[Dimcorner]

Ok the last post and link cleared it up quite a bit.
Thanks!

[Dimcorner]

Ok dumb question... where is the button to edit thread?

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by Dimcorner

Ok dumb question... where is the button to edit thread?

I looked for it too for a long time. Then someone told me 'Edit' only appears after you have posted 50 replies. Sure enough I saw Edit appear after 50 replies as described. You also have to be logged in to see it.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

CORRECTION: I looked at the slow motion of your first two videos again and now see that your upper arm looks in line with the line between your shoulders. Your elbow has a considerable angle in it.......

Have you seen the Todd Ellenbecker video on the shoulder, serving and minimizing impingement risk? The angle between the line between your shoulders and your upper arm might be too large in my opinion.

As you note in your first (red type) sentence, my upper (serving) arm is more or less aligned with my shoulders. As my serving arm goes up to the point of contact, I've tilted enough to keep the upper arm aligned with the shoulders. Which is what Ellenbecker recommends to minimize the risk of impingement. Which accords with the fact that I've never had any shoulder problems.

But yes my (serving) elbow is somewhat bent. I suppose that if I was able to tilt a little more, then there would be less bend at the elbow at contact (ie., upper and lower arm more aligned, closer to 180 degrees between upper and lower arm).

Apparently the elbow bend is also within acceptable limits because I've never had any elbow problems either.

http://www.tennisresources.com/index...2&ATT=&reso=hi

Thanks for the video and comments.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by luvforty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgdXawklcZk

pat explains this issue well.

and like Chas said.... which one is the bigger evil, do you kill your back to go chest up, or do you kill your shoulder otherwise. lol.

I think there might be a happy medium that produces effective serves while minimizing the risk of injury. I've been experimenting recently with trying to get my chest pointing a little more up.

Nice vid. Thanks.

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by TomT

As you note in your first (red type) sentence, my upper (serving) arm is more or less aligned with my shoulders. As my serving arm goes up to the point of contact, I've tilted enough to keep the upper arm aligned with the shoulders. Which is what Ellenbecker recommends to minimize the risk of impingement. Which accords with the fact that I've never had any shoulder problems.

But yes my (serving) elbow is somewhat bent. I suppose that if I was able to tilt a little more, then there would be less bend at the elbow at contact (ie., upper and lower arm more aligned, closer to 180 degrees between upper and lower arm).

Apparently the elbow bend is also within acceptable limits because I've never had any elbow problems either.

http://www.tennisresources.com/index...2&ATT=&reso=hi

Thanks for the video and comments.

You seem to get some very good serves.

"Apparently the elbow bend is also within acceptable limits because I've never had any elbow problems either."

Your technique is different than the high level serves.

I will say that I was using a slightly similar arm arrangement - straight upper arm and ~90° elbow flexion to try and add pace to my volley (the line between the shoulders was about parallel to the ground). I used very forceful internal shoulder rotation. In just a few volleys I tore the tendon associated with Golfer's Elbow. Played on it some days later and tore it farther with a burst of pain. However, the moment of inertia of my forearm and racket was much greater with the elbow bent at 90° than your serving technique with a small angle between the upper arm and the forearm-racket. Much more stress on my ill-advised technique. I would stay aware of stressing your tendon where the GE injury occurs. Stop immediately if you get an acute injury. If you feel any discomfort at the GE location reconsider changing your particular bent arm technique.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

I will say that I was using a slightly similar arm arrangement - straight upper arm and ~90° elbow flexion to try and add pace to my volley (the line between the shoulders was about parallel to the ground).

Not that similar to my arm arrangement at contact (which is upper arm within ~ 10 degrees of alignment with the shoulders, and lower arm within ~ 15 degrees of alignment with the upper arm -- a much smaller angle than the ~ 90 degree elbow flexion you were experimenting with, as you note below).

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

I used very forceful internal shoulder rotation. In just a few volleys I tore the tendon associated with Golfer's Elbow. Played on it some days later and tore it farther with a burst of pain. However, the moment of inertia of my forearm and racket was much greater with the elbow bent at 90° than your serving technique with a small angle between the upper arm and the forearm-racket. Much more stress on my ill-advised technique.

No doubt. Thanks for mentioning this, because prior to reading this (and watching the Ellenbecker vid) I was actually thinking about experimenting as you did (increased elbow flexion to impart greater force at contact ... but with the serve, not the volley).

Sorry if this discussion has been a slight bit off-topic, but I'm thankful for it because it has probably prevented me from injuring my arm.

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

I would stay aware of stressing your tendon where the GE injury occurs. Stop immediately if you get an acute injury. If you feel any discomfort at the GE location reconsider changing your particular bent arm technique.

For sure. But, as noted above, my arm really isn't very bent at contact. The motion doesn't seem to stress the shoulder or elbow at all. It seems I've found a happy medium between effectiveness (for, say, 3.0 to 4.0 level) and risk of injury.

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by TomT

Not that similar to my arm arrangement at contact (which is upper arm within ~ 10 degrees of alignment with the shoulders, and lower arm within ~ 15 degrees of alignment with the upper arm -- a much smaller angle than the ~ 90 degree elbow flexion you were experimenting with, as you note below).
.

When I look at your first video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T6PIuxavp8

At 14 sec, around impact, which is hard to see, I would say that the angle between your forearm and your upper arm is much larger than 15°, guessing roughly 40°. Also, your upper arm may have a more forward angle to it relative to the line between the shoulders.

Keep in mind also that the camera is showing you a 2D projection of the 3D space so things can be deceptive, especially shortened, etc.. What camera and frame rate were you using and can you set a faster shutter?

It looks as if you stretch the internal shoulder rotator muscles very cleanly with external shoulder rotation. Sec 7-12.

Anyhow, some serving technique observations for you to research.

[TomT]

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

When I look at your first video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T6PIuxavp8

At 14 sec, around impact, which is hard to see, I would say that the angle between your forearm and your upper arm is much larger than 15°, guessing roughly 40°. Also, your upper arm may have a more forward angle to it relative to the line between the shoulders.

Yes, I think this is much closer than my original guess. But I think that contact is happening during the 15 sec interval. The angle between forearm and upper arm is continually decreasing during the swing, and I now guess it to be between 30 and 40 degrees, which, apparently, is producing no inordinate stress on anything.

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

Keep in mind also that the camera is showing you a 2D projection of the 3D space so things can be deceptive, especially shortened, etc.. What camera and frame rate were you using and can you set a faster shutter?

Sony Cybershot, 30 fps is the max I think. Yeah, better camera and multiple perspectives would be good.

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

Anyhow, some serving technique observations for you to research.

Thanks Chas Tennis.

And returning to your OP, I was a little worried that I might be doing a waiter's tray position on some serves, but apparently it's fleeting enough when it happens that it's not a problem. I guess it might be a problem if I had a more modern style serving motion, but I doubt that I'll ever be able to do a good modern style serving motion.

[Chas Tennis]

Fuzzy Yellow Balls has many Youtube high speed videos of serves where the camera views from above the server.

For example,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1a7Qq0eljU

In the high level serve shown the racket faces the sky briefly earlier in the service motion. When the arm is up and straight the racket has the edge-on orientation toward the ball. Similar observations for YT FYB kick serve. Others?

[It is difficult to do stop-action single-frame on YT. I get the best results pressing the play-pause button as fast as possible.]

If we had these camera views for the pros they would be ideal for answering another question - How often are the pros looking at the ball at impact? I now don't believe that they look at the ball at impact.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=442804