Does Modern Tennis Exist?

[luvforty]

right - we are on the same page... yanking is a teaching method that maybe valid for some students.

nothing more, nothing less.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by 5263

Yep, an amazing clip that clearly shows quite a few important items.
You can see how close Fed brings his hand to the ball dragging the racket.

At that point you can see how his hand is right there at the T in Cincinnati &
as he pulls strongly across, his hand moves all the way well past the "i" in
Cincinnati for contact. You can even see how the ball TS is not right over the
top, but has a side aspect to the spin due to the up and across the ball
contact.

Imo what is easy to miss in slow mo like this, is how fast the hand is moving
across at this point. One indication is how little the ball travels during this
time. Even though the ball is moving quickly, it seems almost to sit still,
even more obvious in the vid before with more of a side view.

good analysis, agree with all your points

[sureshs]

The Fed clip is an inside-out FH, and I said before, what is being described as yanking etc is nothing but the mini-inside-out embedded aspect of Fed's regular forehands which adds side spin. There is no abrupt pulling back or yanking of the racket before contact.

[JohnYandell]

In the Fed clip the racket moves on an arc just as it does in all forehands. There are differences in the exact direction the racket faces of a few degrees that determine shot direction.

On a drive there is no sudden change in the hitting arm structure at or around contact. This is why the idea of pulling or yanking across is not an accurate description and is a poor teaching directive.

What you see is the entire hitting arm structure rotating and this is causing the windshield wiper effect, which is always a matter of degree but is relatively limited here compared to some of his forehands. This is why the rpms on this stroke are around 2000rpm--still a ton but below his averages. It's a power drive.

You can also see how far the racket tip extends outward toward the other side.

Note in the preparation how Roger is making a smooth full unit turn that is continous literally from the start of the motion until the full left arm stretch--despite the fact he is actually using a shuffle step to initiate.

Go frame by frame to about 14-20 frames after contact. Look at his arm--it is extended virtually directly forward from his shoulder joint. He couldn't be reaching any further forward or outward.

Also look at the incredible spacing between his hand and his torso about around 35-40 frames after contact.

Two key points for all to emulate--an image of the full turn and an image of the hand and racket when it reaches the left side of his torso.

[julian]

[quote=JohnYandell;7102543]OK here is what I got from the other thread--thank you suresh:

Wegner wrote:

when you yank the ball to get more power, the racquet first encounters the resistance of the impact with the ball, that is why you see a loss of speed at that moment. But because you are forcing the action with acceleration… the racquet speeds up incredibly and of course you don't intend for the racquet to hit your shoulder or you arm, so you stop it or at least you cease contracting. That is why you see a top player having more than 50 MPH on the racquet head across the body and to his left.

When you pull from the racquet rather than extending, the contraction of biceps and pectorals connects the body weight to the impact. That, together with the acceleration makes for more ball speed. If you extend, you disconnect, and you actually loose power.

Please compare to this Federer clip and see if you see any yanking going on:

http://www.tennisplayer.net/public/t...nside_out.html[/QUOTE

Mr Yandell.
Please see
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=6537769 post #198

y direction is the direction perpendicular to the net.
Results quoted are consider more reliable than APAS ones

[Mulach]

JY

What I see is that his arm is fully extended starting about 100 frames prior to impact to about 30 frames after impact.

The other thing I see is that his feet at prior to impact and his feet after landing post impact are roughly the same distance from the baseline. So there was no forward movement through the stroke.

The lateral movement, however, is tremendous. Roughly when he starts his rotation his head is in line with the E on "Southern". When he lands post impact his head is in line with the line judge's left knee.

So massive lateral displacement with almost no forward displacement. Therefore you can only conclude that the extension is a RESULT of the rotation of the shoulders around the vertical axis. I will say it again - the extension is a result of the rotation. So the teaching point should be rotate, rotate rotate. Not extend (because extend will happen with a good rotation).

Trying to swing and pull across is a fantastic way of achieving rotation. The harder one tries to pull across and rotate the more the legs load prior, the more the feet come off the ground to allow the right hip to clear so that the shoulder and torso can rotate.

The more I look and read the more I tend to agree with some that this big debate is a result of people talking past each other.

[5263]

Originally Posted by Mulach

JY

What I see is that his arm is fully extended starting about 100 frames prior to impact to about 30 frames after impact.

The other thing I see is that his feet at prior to impact and his feet after landing post impact are roughly the same distance from the baseline. So there was no forward movement through the stroke.

The lateral movement, however, is tremendous. Roughly when he starts his rotation his head is in line with the E on "Southern". When he lands post impact his head is in line with the line judge's left knee.

So massive lateral displacement with almost no forward displacement. Therefore you can only conclude that the extension is a RESULT of the rotation of the shoulders around the vertical axis. I will say it again - the extension is a result of the rotation. So the teaching point should be rotate, rotate rotate. Not extend (because extend will happen with a good rotation).

Trying to swing and pull across is a fantastic way of achieving rotation. The harder one tries to pull across and rotate the more the legs load prior, the more the feet come off the ground to allow the right hip to clear so that the shoulder and torso can rotate.

The more I look and read the more I tend to agree with some that this big debate is a result of people talking past each other.

several good points

[sureshs]

JY, see my posts 294 and 295 in the other thread

[JohnYandell]

Mulach,

Sorry but you aren't seeing what I am seeing in that clip. The torso is rotating. The arm is being lifted from the shoulder muscles. The internal forward rotation of the shoulder is an independent variable. Just stick your arm out in front and try it. There's no forward component.

My main point is this--identify the key positions such as the turn and what I call the outward extension. Feel them physically. Create mental images. Make them in the stroke. Video yourself and verify this.

Although some additional descriptions of the biomechanics can help with the internal mental feelings/images in general it's just a question of making the positions and letting your body do this without verbal thought.

But we need to start with some accurate images.

[JohnYandell]

Suresh,

If only what you said about facts putting myth to rest were true. But facts are not relevant to the goals of the op in the other thread.

[JohnYandell]

Julian,

You should try to summarize those articles in a few simple English sentences.
But yeah, any competent researcher is going to reach similar conclusions.

[Mulach]

Originally Posted by JohnYandell

Mulach,

Sorry but you aren't seeing what I am seeing in that clip. The torso is rotating. The arm is being lifted from the shoulder muscles. The internal forward rotation of the shoulder is an independent variable. Just stick your arm out in front and try it. There's no forward component.....

My main point is this--identify the key positions such as the turn and what I call the outward extension. Feel them physically. Create mental images. Make them in the stroke. Video yourself and verify this.

Although some additional descriptions of the biomechanics can help with the internal mental feelings/images in general it's just a question of making the positions and letting your body do this without verbal thought.

But we need to start with some accurate images.

Couldn't agree more on the accurate image comment. I think the art of teaching is getting the student to work on things that result in approximations to the images. Sometimes that instruction can sound very technically flawed but if it leads to the correct image we shouldn't get hung up on it. Ideally the teacher would know what they are saying is technically flawed. Something like a white lie.

Sorry. I'm not sure I follow the bold part correctly. Can you say more?

This is a video of me working on my FH. I'm the guy in the blue. It isn't a good quality video but maybe you can use it to help me relate to what you are describing.

Happy to get the full critique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...nEZsMIGI#t=18s

[sureshs]

Both guys are in blue

[treblings]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Both guys are in blue

he´s the one in blue working on his forehand

[luvforty]

come on! you are doing good! come on!

[5263]

Originally Posted by Mulach

This is a video of me working on my FH. I'm the guy in the blue. It isn't a good quality video but maybe you can use it to help me relate to what you are describing.

Happy to get the full critique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...nEZsMIGI#t=18s

Looking pretty good there and clearly working across most of those shots.
The one I noticed that got away from you, high and long, was where you tended
to push out with extra extension towards the target...notice that?
What was that coach trying to prove to you?

[sureshs]

You are using too much open face. Maybe it is because you are hitting inside out forehands. Not a lot of top spin on those balls. Though side spin may be there.

[Mulach]

Originally Posted by 5263

Looking pretty good there and clearly working across most of those shots.
The one I noticed that got away from you, high and long, was where you tended
to push out with extra extension towards the target...notice that?
What was that coach trying to prove to you?

Not really trying to prove anything. He was suggesting i focus more on preparation where I wanted to focus on the finish across and weight transfer.

I remember that high long ball. You think it was more of extension vs. rotation that caused it? That is probably likely. I've only recently shifted focus away from extension to across and rotation. Need to keep cleaning that up.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Mulach

You think it was more of extension vs. rotation that caused it?

Don't look at the world with only one point of view. Open face will also cause it. Beware of those who always harp on only one issue due to some agenda.

[Mulach]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Don't look at the world with only one point of view. Open face will also cause it. Beware of those who always harp on only one issue due to some agenda.

Say more about the open face. Are you talking about grip? I play eastern and don't plan on changing that. I'm generally satisfied with the top spin I get when I don't miss. The camera angle is from top of fence so you don't see the full on trajectory.

Regarding your beware comment, do you have full disclosure?