Whats your top 10 of all time right now?

[treblings]

Originally Posted by FedericRoma83

It doesn't matter that much to me.
I just look at their career achievements... I think they speak clearly. 19 undisputed Majors against 14. 1957-72 against 1964-69. Head-to-head in big tournaments 9-7.

i was just stating what i believe is a fact. this forum has a reputation of over and underrating players, Laver is not one of them, imo.
you´re more than welcome to your opinion and i enjoy reading your debates even if i don´t regularly contribute. it all helps making youngsters aware of the history of our beautiful sport

[treblings]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

treblings, tennis world is not always the truth per se, but regarding Laver tennis world and this forum are correct in putting him into first tier.

isn´t that the truth
as you said before, some players are underrated and nearly forgotten and it´s a good thing that they get discussed here and remembered. i don´t mind even if for example kiki overpromotes Jan Kodes in a rather ridiculous way.
because Kodes should be remembered.
or someone like your own Hanne Nüsslein or many of the other pro players who where banned from the amateur scene

[forzamilan90]

Originally Posted by treblings

most of the tennis world happens to agree with this forum

Mmmm I'm not do sure about that. Older historians perhaps, but I find current experts/people in the tennis world to see things a bit differently

[treblings]

Originally Posted by forzamilan90

Mmmm I'm not do sure about that. Older historians perhaps, but I find current experts/people in the tennis world to see things a bit differently

interesting.
they probably lean more towards the more current players?
just to clear up a possible misunderstanding. i was talking about Laver being in the first tier not the undisputed goat

[forzamilan90]

Originally Posted by treblings

interesting.
they probably lean more towards the more current players?
just to clear up a possible misunderstanding. i was talking about Laver being in the first tier not the undisputed goat

Ok yeah I think Laver is generally considered first tier. I was going more in line with Rosewall, Gonzales, Tilden not being mentioned/considered much by contemporary media. Generally it's Fed, Laver, Sampras, Borg and Nadal that are thought upon as high tier greats by conntemporary media

[treblings]

Originally Posted by forzamilan90

Ok yeah I think Laver is generally considered first tier. I was going more in line with Rosewall, Gonzales, Tilden not being mentioned/considered much by contemporary media. Generally it's Fed, Laver, Sampras, Borg and Nadal that are thought upon as high tier greats by conntemporary media

that´s what i really like about this forum. it discusses great players that in my opinion get overlooked by the media and the tennis playing world in general. you don´t see me posting much here, because i have to confess i´m not into ranking
but i like that they get talked about here and recognized

[pc1]

Originally Posted by treblings

that´s what i really like about this forum. it discusses great players that in my opinion get overlooked by the media and the tennis playing world in general. you don´t see me posting much here, because i have to confess i´m not into ranking
but i like that they get talked about here and recognized

That's what I enjoy also. It's (hopefully) reasonable discussion about history and past players.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by treblings

isn´t that the truth
as you said before, some players are underrated and nearly forgotten and it´s a good thing that they get discussed here and remembered. i don´t mind even if for example kiki overpromotes Jan Kodes in a rather ridiculous way.
because Kodes should be remembered.
or someone like your own Hanne Nüsslein or many of the other pro players who where banned from the amateur scene

treblings, I agree. By the way, Nüsslein is not my own since he was German and I'm from Austria but it's nice you called him by his very nickname, Hanne, which sounds a bit female....

[treblings]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

treblings, I agree. By the way, Nüsslein is not my own since he was German and I'm from Austria but it's nice you called him by his very nickname, Hanne, which sounds a bit female....

he´s one of your favourite players, admit it
i know that he´s German of course, read the wonderful book.
and we´re both Austrian, is it snowing at the moment in your hometown?

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by forzamilan90

Mmmm I'm not do sure about that. Older historians perhaps, but I find current experts/people in the tennis world to see things a bit differently

Forza, You surely are right that the modern experts and fans are more focussed to current players. But even if we have a Federer hype world-wide, many experts still appreciate Rod Laver (and forget about Rosewall, Gonzalez, Tilden, as the ugly Tennis Channel list showed).

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by forzamilan90

Ok yeah I think Laver is generally considered first tier. I was going more in line with Rosewall, Gonzales, Tilden not being mentioned/considered much by contemporary media. Generally it's Fed, Laver, Sampras, Borg and Nadal that are thought upon as high tier greats by conntemporary media

I only can agree.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by treblings

he´s one of your favourite players, admit it
i know that he´s German of course, read the wonderful book.
and we´re both Austrian, is it snowing at the moment in your hometown?

Yes, Nüsslein is one of my favourite players. He is so much underrated and unknown to many fans and maybe even experts. I rank him top claycourt player of the 1930s, ahead of von Cramm, Perry, Crawford...

Yes, it's snowing just now in my city where Danube is seldom as blue as described in that wonderful Waltz...

[treblings]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Yes, Nüsslein is one of my favourite players. He is so much underrated and unknown to many fans and maybe even experts. I rank him top claycourt player of the 1930s, ahead of von Cramm, Perry, Crawford...

Yes, it's snowing just now in my city where Danube is seldom blue as described in that wonderful Waltz...

i wonder whether the danube was in fact blue when Strauss wrote his famous waltz

Nüsslein being the top claycourt player of the 30´s?

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by treblings

i wonder whether the danube was in fact blue when Strauss wrote his famous waltz

Nüsslein being the top claycourt player of the 30´s?

Nüsslein won 9 of his 11 pro majors on clay. He defeated Kozeluh, Vines, Cochet, Tilden (who even had beaten Budge in the SFs of Southport 1939). After his 1938 crushing Tilden at Paris, Big Bill said that Nüsslein was stronger than Lacoste...

Tilden also reported that Hans used to beat von Cramm in practice matches. He lost their only official match in four sets when he was handicapped by a cold.

[FedericRoma83]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Nüsslein won 9 of his 11 pro majors on clay. He defeated Kozeluh, Vines, Cochet, Tilden (who even had beaten Budge in the SFs of Southport 1939). After his 1938 crushing Tilden at Paris, Big Bill said that Nüsslein was stronger than Lacoste...

Tilden also reported that Hans used to beat von Cramm in practice matches. He lost their only official match in four sets when he was handicapped by a cold.

I disagree, because Pro Majors were not so great in the 30s. They become great only in 1939, when Budge joined the professional circuit, and Perry and Vines started to play more tournaments (until 1938 they preferred tours). In my opinion the only real Major won by Nüsslein was Southport 1939.
I still rate von Cramm ahead of him. Anyway, he was a great player (world no. 3 in 1939 for sure), whose career was destroyed by federation's stupidity: how can you ban a 15/16 years old boy?

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by FedericRoma83

I disagree, because Pro Majors were not so great in the 30s. They become great only in 1939, when Budge joined the professional circuit, and Perry and Vines started to play more tournaments (until 1938 they preferred tours). In my opinion the only real Major won by Nüsslein was Southport 1939.
I still rate von Cramm ahead of him. Anyway, he was a great player (world no. 3 in 1939 for sure), whose career was destroyed by federation's stupidity: how can you ban a 15/16 years old boy?

Federic, You are rather bold to take off 10 majors from Nüsslein. For instance in 1934 he won the prestigious US Pro beating Vines (probably world's No.1) and Kozeluh. In 1933 he won the pro world championship defeating a still fabulous Tilden and Kozeluh. In other majors he beat strong Cochet plus Tilden. Don't underrate players like Plaa and Ramillon. Both were world pro champions.

Tilden was a force in all years of the 1930s. F.i. in 1934 he defeated von Cramm on clay clearly at Berlin. It is reported that Nüsslein had the edge against Tilden.

I also rank Nüsslein among the top three for 1933 to 1936 plus 1938.

In 1935 he beat America's NO.1, Allison in an official pro/am match.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by FedericRoma83

I disagree, because Pro Majors were not so great in the 30s. They become great only in 1939, when Budge joined the professional circuit, and Perry and Vines started to play more tournaments (until 1938 they preferred tours). In my opinion the only real Major won by Nüsslein was Southport 1939.
I still rate von Cramm ahead of him. Anyway, he was a great player (world no. 3 in 1939 for sure), whose career was destroyed by federation's stupidity: how can you ban a 15/16 years old boy?

Federic, Yes it was a shame that German Tennis Federation banned Nüsslein for lifetime and never was ready to revise that verdict...

[pc1]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Federic, Yes it was a shame that German Tennis Federation banned Nüsslein for lifetime and never was ready to revise that verdict...

Nusslein is one of the unfortunate cases in sports history of what if. He probably would be one of the great figures in tennis history (to my mind he is) if he was allowed to stay an amateur.

[BobbyOne]

Originally Posted by pc1

Nusslein is one of the unfortunate cases in sports history of what if. He probably would be one of the great figures in tennis history (to my mind he is) if he was allowed to stay an amateur.

Yes, pc1, I can see hypothetical Roland Garros finals von Cramm vs. Nüsslein...

[FedericRoma83]

Originally Posted by BobbyOne

Federic, You are rather bold to take off 10 majors from Nüsslein. For instance in 1934 he won the prestigious US Pro beating Vines (probably world's No.1) and Kozeluh. In 1933 he won the pro world championship defeating a still fabulous Tilden and Kozeluh. In other majors he beat strong Cochet plus Tilden. Don't underrate players like Plaa and Ramillon. Both were world pro champions.
Tilden was a force in all years of the 1930s. F.i. in 1934 he defeated von Cramm on clay clearly at Berlin. It is reported that Nüsslein had the edge against Tilden.
I also rank Nüsslein among the top three for 1933 to 1936 plus 1938.
In 1935 he beat America's NO.1, Allison in an official pro/am match.

I don't underrate Ramillon or Plaa, they were good players, but surely not big ones, they never won anything big (Frenc Pro 1931-32 were weak titles, we don't even know if they really happened ). Plaa won in Berlin 1932, which was a pretty good tournament but not a Major in my opinion (Tilden was past his prime, Nusslein was not in his prime yet, and obviously a lot of strong amateurs were missing).
Talking about Nusslein, the 1933 World Pro can't be considered a Major in my opinion: another pretty good tournament, but Kozeluh and Tilden were 38 and 40 at the time (and Kozeluh was not a big champion in my opinion).
In 1934 he had an amazing victory at US Pro against Vines, but we know that Vines was not unbeatable on clay.
On other Pro Slams he won, he faced mainly old players, while Perry and Vines were on tours (moreover, in my opinion Cochet never shined as a Pro: he had some good moments, but surely nobody will remember him for his Pro career).

From my point of view, Nusslein won only a proper Major, Southport 1939, but I can accept who says he won two Majors, for his 1934 win over Vines, which was surely a big achievement. That said, I really can't credit him more than two Majors.
So if someone asks me about Nusslein, I will introduce him like this: "an underrated Pro player from the 30s, particularly strong on clay. He won several tournaments in his circuit, even if many of them had depleted fields (because at the time amateurs had another circuit, and the strongest Pros preferred touring). Anyway, with his not-so-rare victories over Tilden and Vines, he can clame a place between the most distinctive players of the 30s. His biggest victory was Southport 1939, an English tournament on clay, which was surely a Major in that season."

I can say he was a sort of Muster of the 30s: enormously strong on clay, but only one Major ;D