"Aggregation of Marginal Gains"

[tennis_balla]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

Oops - forgot my five...

1) Effective first serve (high percentage 65+)
2) Ability to remain at least neutral off the second serve
3) 80% trading ball (rally ball) of both sides
4) Movement efficient enough to protect contact point
5) Ability to take time away from opponent (i.e hit early mid-court ball)

*I reserve the right to edit this list as I see fit and change my mind/have my mind changed

I would add to this the ability to neutralize an opponents serve and a good second serve return points won. Also, the ability to have a good transition game from defence to offence as all good pro's posses this.

[Ash_Smith]

^^^You can't add Balla! I'm only letting you have 5 World Class Basics!!! What are you going to cut!!!

Back on topic!

[sureshs]

What does World Class mean? That it applies to word class tennis players only?

Because for something like effective first serve, I don't see what is achieved by listing it without mentioning a level. My effective first serve is not effective against Djokovic. So that means I should treat everything else as marginal till my serve is effective against Djokovic?

Or is it per level? That makes more sense. Solidify the 5 important skills for a particular level before taking on minor things. I can relate to that, having seen adult clinics where ladies want to be taught intricate doubles strategies but don't know that backhand grip is not the same as forehand.

Or is it a third thing altogether (namely BS)? Because I have seen numerous such BS lists and approaches and methodologies come and go in management style over the years I have been a manager. A lot of buzz, a lot of training, tons of consultants making a buck, and then it fizzles out under the pressure of reality.

[Ash_Smith]

Well, I work at a world class level, so for me that's what it means - but it's all relative to the level at which you play or the player you teach is playing - so your point two is where you should pitch your list - now have at it!

[sureshs]

I am now not sure that this kind of analysis is applicable to recreational play. The goals should be: injury prevention, effective strokes, enjoyment.

Injury prevention means having reasonable technique to avoid injuries.

Effective strokes means technique should not be glorified over winning, till the point of injury prevention. Recreational play is a dangerous land where good technique and winning are not necessarily coincident.

Enjoyment of the game and strokes and feel of the ball should be the prime motivation, without which the activity will come to a stop soon, as I have seen in many people.

[Timbo's hopeless slice]

Sureshs... Oh, never mind.

I actually agree with Ash's five basics from my perspective as a junior coach and Open tournament player.

I do, however, believe these basics are applicable across all levels of tennis. (my 80% rally ball isn't as good as Djokovics but it's better than a 4.0s, see?)

[dominikk1985]

always factor in the opponent. a great return or serve is great but good is relative considering the strength of the opponent.

a number of won points is a good way to start but you don't need to serve as well to win 80% of the points against isner or raonic then you need to do to win those points against ferrer or nole.

same is true for the return, against a better server it is harder.

training all those things is great but how good it really is only shows in matches against world class players.

"Holding your serve in 80%" is not an absolute number like throwing the shot 70 feet or throw the baseball 96 but is always dependent on the opponent.

still a good serve or return does help but it is not easy to really work towards quantifiable goals.

[5263]

I approach the instruction in a similar way and will try to make it fit in your basic
5 format.

1. Baseline rally shots, Second serve, and basic serve rtn, -basic skills to play
and enjoy this game with most anyone even close to your level. core fundamentals of
the game imo.

2. Mid Court Attack shots- add this level to your game and you can not only play
and mix it up with those near your level, but you can force the issue to some
extent based on how well you do it. Includes slice along with drives.

3. Finishing shots- 1st serves, close in Overheads & Volleys- with some of these
skills, you can capitalize on your opportunities, earned and found.

4. Agility/Fitness level to employ your game

5. Mindset and context for how the game is played.

4 & 5 are developed as I bring them thru 1, 2 & 3 in order related to proficiency,
but all 5 are intro'd with some practice along the way.
City Tennis Director, 20+ yrs instructing, coached my own 2 children to D1
full rides with my 3rd ahead of their schedule. Work mostly with competing Jrs.
a former college athlete, MA instructor, and Military pilot instructor TPS.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Timbo's hopeless slice

Sureshs... Oh, never mind.

I actually agree with Ash's five basics from my perspective as a junior coach and Open tournament player.

I do, however, believe these basics are applicable across all levels of tennis. (my 80% rally ball isn't as good as Djokovics but it's better than a 4.0s, see?)

Yeah I always have to find something contrary to say

[treblings]

i´ll give it a try.
i like the challenge, as it makes me think what it is i want to achieve.
this is from a coaches standpoint, working with kids of different talents and ambition.

the following points are maybe the foundation that i like to lay, on which they can build their game and not be limited in their development

1 technical foundation which include the right grips for every stroke and
biomechanically sound strokes that don´t lead to injuries
2 tactical understanding of tennis as a game
3 movement, with priorities on balance and efficiency, and also the tactical
side of where to move
4 mental aspects of the game, which cover a wide area. from the ability to
handle pressure to the ability to handle your opponents. how to deal with
bad days, and so on
5 athletic development. again a wide area, which covers everything from
cross-training in other ball sports to develop additional coordination
abilities, to injury prevention and so on

of course there is another way of answering your question.
i could say, i want them to

1 have an efficient first serve with a high percentage
2 reliable second serve with the ability to hit with different spins and reliable
placement
3 return consistently and attack weak second serves
4 be able to rally consistently and adapt to the playing style of their
opponents
5 be able to finish a point in different ways

long post. i intend to come back to add or substract. in other words, it´s a work in progress

[Ash_Smith]

good stuff Trebs!

Your first 5 is very general and essentially addresses the 4 performance factors (physical, technical, tactical and mental), which is to generic for where I am looking to go with this I am wondering if we can really dial down into specific skills!

Your second list is more like it!

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by 5263

I approach the instruction in a similar way and will try to make it fit in your basic
5 format.

1. Baseline rally shots, Second serve, and basic serve rtn, -basic skills to play
and enjoy this game with most anyone even close to your level. core fundamentals of
the game imo.

2. Mid Court Attack shots- add this level to your game and you can not only play
and mix it up with those near your level, but you can force the issue to some
extent based on how well you do it. Includes slice along with drives.

3. Finishing shots- 1st serves, close in Overheads & Volleys- with some of these
skills, you can capitalize on your opportunities, earned and found.

4. Agility/Fitness level to employ your game

5. Mindset and context for how the game is played.

4 & 5 are developed as I bring them thru 1, 2 & 3 in order related to proficiency,
but all 5 are intro'd with some practice along the way.

Good stuff! Although I'm pretty sure you've snuck more than 5 in there!

[Relinquis]

my non-pro, non-coach, non-world class, non-conformist list of 5:

- 2nd serve with good enough placement, spin and pace (in that order) to use tactically, i.e. take opponent out wide, hit high to their backhand or keep them guessing.
- Well developed topspin backhand. Most players will attack the backhand. Having a weapon backhand means that you will win tactically as their strategies break down. This also helps with return of serve %.
- Bouncy* footwork when your opponent strikes the ball
- Going back to the T** type positioning after strokes
- inside-out drop shot that spins off-court from both wings.

Rationale: These skills neutralise most of the cookie cutter baseline attack the backhand tactics that I see and will help players develop an all-court game imo. What do you guys think? I have 4 out of the 5 so far, for my level, working on my serve.

* this is the appropriate scientific terminology.. trust me.
** the tennis equivalent of the squash positioning, neutralising angles of attack forcing your opponent to hit lower % shots, or give you a juicy ball in your strike zone.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

good stuff Trebs!

Your first 5 is very general and essentially addresses the 4 performance factors (physical, technical, tactical and mental), which is to generic for where I am looking to go with this I am wondering if we can really dial down into specific skills!

Your second list is more like it!

thanks for the feedback clarifies it for me, what you look for

[Timbo's hopeless slice]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Yeah I always have to find something contrary to say

I know, and even knowing, I still fall for it every now and then..

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by Relinquis

- inside-out drop shot that spins off-court from both wings.

I am wondering if this would be a basic or a marginal gain

[5263]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

Good stuff! Although I'm pretty sure you've snuck more than 5 in there!

Thanks Ash. I wasn't quite sure at what level you were trying to take this to,
but I'm really liking the break down I use for 1, 2, & 3 for giving the player an
idea on where they are and where they need to be. You can always improve on
the various things inside the three groups, but until you are solid at each group,
you are not a complete player.

You can also evaluate your play day to day with those first 3 groups.
Example- a player may say today they rallied well (#1) with the opponent, but
could not execute well enough on the mid ct opportunities (#2) to win or earn the
chance to get looks to finish (#3).
Or another player may have rallied well (#1) and attacked mid ct well (#2),
but struggled to finish despite some easy overhead and volley looks to putaway (#3).
Even with that evaluation, this second player may have eecked out a win.

[Relinquis]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

I am wondering if this would be a basic or a marginal gain

haha... well, it's not a basic shot (sidespin drop shot), but the gains are far from marginal

[NLBwell]

Assuming the player has a basic game to start with:
1. Second serve that enables the player to get an advantage in the point.
2. First serve that is a weapon -many serves not returned at all.
Having #1 enables #2. (Look what happens to Verdasco when he starts doubting his second serve)
3. Block serve return that can be placed anywhere on the court (see Federer).
4. Ability to take the ball on the rise effectively (enables court positioning)
5. Ability to hit effectively on the run (defense to offense).

[Ash_Smith]

^^^Cheers NLB - your thinking is not dissimilar to my own