Playing Tournaments with a Sketchy Serve

[TCF]

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[Soianka]

Originally Posted by TCF

Thats not fair. If the parent came on and said "this is my daughter, she wants to be # 1 in the world, any advice what she could work on?".....we would both give our opinions on what she needed to work on. Of course at age 13 she had things she had to work on. But she certainly looked like a solid 13 year old in that video. Would either of us predict great things for her? No, because no one can predict that. But we certainly would not rip her just to rip her.

BUT......If her parents had come on here and said, "this girl is the guaranteed #1, next big thing, better than Capriati and Seles, is trained by a coach who knows how to make a champion and you don't, because she is winning now she will be a top pro, and on and on". Yes, then we would look for more negatives.....more to give back some stuff to the parents than make accurate predictions about the player.

You are talking about things in a vacuum with no context. Ever notice we have only gone after 2 players in a negative way in all the time on the board....both because the parents got in our face and were over the top with prediction?

The fact no one would have predicted a #1 ranking for her at age 13 reinforces what we have said....no one can make predictions. So when someone comes on here and tell us an 11 year is a "guaranteed top player" and when we say, wait and see, they respond with "you guys are clueless, I know a champion".....expect a little ribbing coming back the other way!

I don't remember DB's dad ever saying he was going to be the #1 player in the world or the greatest ever. Maybe I have not been here long enough.

[lala28m]

That moving target is keeping me dizzy.
The premise is... Should kids with flawed techniques (serves, etc) continue to play in tournaments or will winning tournaments with the flawed techniques hinder future performance?
Who cares what the crazy parents project. It's the kids performance and results that we are discussing, correct?
My stance is, one flawed part of a game, at a young age, coupled with other good aspects does NOT rule out future success. And it does not warrant pulling kids out of tournaments for a year plus. That seems silly. You can fix flawed strokes etc, while continuing to compete.
Azerenka YouTube video, Exhibit #1. (Yes, I see her serve is flawed here. But she is 13. She continued to compete... and improve.)

[Soianka]

Originally Posted by lala28m

That moving target is keeping me dizzy.
The premise is... Should kids with flawed techniques (serves, etc) continue to play in tournaments or will winning tournaments with the flawed techniques hinder future performance?
Who cares what the crazy parents project. It's the kids performance and results that we are discussing, correct?
My stance is, one flawed part of a game, at a young age, coupled with other good aspects does NOT rule out future success. And it does not warrant pulling kids out of tournaments for a year plus. That seems silly. You can fix flawed strokes etc, while continuing to compete.
Azerenka YouTube video, Exhibit #1. (Yes, I see her serve is flawed here. But she is 13. She continued to compete... and improve.)

I like your style, LaLa and I agree with your post.

[mrj1813]

Not to be argumentative, but what exactly is a "flawed" stroke vs an "unflawed" stroke? So many professionals on both the men's and women's tour have VASTLY different service motions that I don't get sometimes when someone says someone's serve is flawed. It's not like there is one way to do it. Different stances, ball toss height, grips, knee bend depth, back bending, torso turning, racket up with the ball toss, racket down with the ball toss(serena), hitches, etc etc.

My point is that as a longtime lurker here on the tw boards, I constantly see people pointing out flaws in other's strokes. Maybe they just hit it a little different and it works for them. Thank the lord we all don't hit the ball the same way.

Of course i agree that her jumping around during the motion is not good at all and she obviously fixed it, but compared to say....federer, aren't all of our serves flawed? I wonder what the comments of McEnroe's serve would have been when he was 13. Uglier than sin but it worked for him.

I vote keep playing the tournaments.

[Chemist]

Originally Posted by lala28m

....Azarenka, age 13 at the Orange Bowl. Who can me she doesn't have strokes to work on (including serve!). But early tournament play does not seem to have hindered her. (I know you have a boy, so slightly different strategy, etc, ...but the moral of the story remains).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80dX_yNz70c&sns=em

Just did a quick search of Azarenka. She was born on 7/31/89. If she were indeed 13 yr old on that video, she should be playing the 2002 Jr Orange Bowl (for 14s). Would it be possible that she improved so much in one year to reach #54 in the junior ITF in 2003? Then in another two years, she would be ranked #1 in the world by winning Jr Australia Open and Jr US Open.

Maybe she was only 11 in that video. Nevertheless, her coach did an amazing job in improving her games. BTW, she started training in Arizona after she turned 16.

The 3rd link below is an amazing story about her and Slava Konikov, her coach from 8-14. Konikov is Sacramento State men's coach now. Something to learn for girls or boys who also wanted to be #1 in the world?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Azarenka
http://www.itftennis.com/Juniors/pla...erID=100034773
http://norcaltennisczar.blogspot.com...t-kidding.html

[BMC9670]

On the OP's post, I had the same experience with my son when he was 7/8. He could hit groundies pretty well, but couldn't serve. Dabbled in a few tournaments and he would DF 2 points each game, sometimes more. When he played a kid who could get the serve in, he would win some return games but lose all service games. Confidence shot. When he played another kid who couldn't serve is was like watching grass grow. No fun - didn't like tournaments.

So, I stepped away from tournaments and taught him a proper serve - which took a year, and in the mean time trained, found some good groups and he played on a club team, which he enjoyed.

Now, at 10 1/2, we are venturing back into tournaments (12U) and he's doing well. He's confident in his serve which in turn makes him confident in the rest of his game. Most importantly, he's now having fun and wants to compete more.

[TCF]

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[lala28m]

Originally Posted by mrj1813

Not to be argumentative, but what exactly is a "flawed" stroke vs an "unflawed" stroke? So many professionals on both the men's and women's tour have VASTLY different service motions that I don't get sometimes when someone says someone's serve is flawed. It's not like there is one way to do it. Different stances, ball toss height, grips, knee bend depth, back bending, torso turning, racket up with the ball toss, racket down with the ball toss(serena), hitches, etc etc.

My point is that as a longtime lurker here on the tw boards, I constantly see people pointing out flaws in other's strokes. Maybe they just hit it a little different and it works for them. Thank the lord we all don't hit the ball the same way.

Of course i agree that her jumping around during the motion is not good at all and she obviously fixed it, but compared to say....federer, aren't all of our serves flawed? I wonder what the comments of McEnroe's serve would have been when he was 13. Uglier than sin but it worked for him.

I vote keep playing the tournaments.

I agree. Look at Bartoli.
I bet you had people all her life laughing at her (and her dad) about those "horrible" and "awkward" strokes and their crazy aspirations. Nowadays, the announcers call the strokes and serves "unconventional" lol.
We can talk strategy all we want, but once in a while, we have to look at the results

[TCF]

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[Tennishacker]

Originally Posted by TCF

Again, apples and oranges. Kids who lack many fundamentals, start competing and never change those issues.....vs a kid who has the fundamentals and now must get the experience of competing while also improving aspects of their games.

Agree 100%

[Tennishacker]

Originally Posted by lala28m

That moving target is keeping me dizzy.
The premise is... Should kids with flawed techniques (serves, etc) continue to play in tournaments or will winning tournaments with the flawed techniques hinder future performance?
Who cares what the crazy parents project. It's the kids performance and results that we are discussing, correct?
My stance is, one flawed part of a game, at a young age, coupled with other good aspects does NOT rule out future success. And it does not warrant pulling kids out of tournaments for a year plus. That seems silly. You can fix flawed strokes etc, while continuing to compete.
Azerenka YouTube video, Exhibit #1. (Yes, I see her serve is flawed here. But she is 13. She continued to compete... and improve.)

Wrong, AD's serve is just totally BAD. Her service motion is similar to those kids/adults that play just for fun. If her aspirations are to play pro tennis, then her coach must correct it NOW.

As for Azarenka's serve, (at 13 yrs) it is fundamentally correct.

[Tennishacker]

Originally Posted by mrj1813

Not to be argumentative, but what exactly is a "flawed" stroke vs an "unflawed" stroke? So many professionals on both the men's and women's tour have VASTLY different service motions that I don't get sometimes when someone says someone's serve is flawed. It's not like there is one way to do it. Different stances, ball toss height, grips, knee bend depth, back bending, torso turning, racket up with the ball toss, racket down with the ball toss(serena), hitches, etc etc.

My point is that as a longtime lurker here on the tw boards, I constantly see people pointing out flaws in other's strokes. Maybe they just hit it a little different and it works for them. Thank the lord we all don't hit the ball the same way.

Of course i agree that her jumping around during the motion is not good at all and she obviously fixed it, but compared to say....federer, aren't all of our serves flawed? I wonder what the comments of McEnroe's serve would have been when he was 13. Uglier than sin but it worked for him.

I vote keep playing the tournaments.

(if your talking about AD)

No one who plays competitive tennis (juniors, college & pros) use a forehand grip to serve.

Any competent coach should be embarrassed to have their student using a forehand grip for serving.

[Soianka]

Originally Posted by TCF

I never get this school of thought of laughing at people who tried to correct strokes. Okay....so what would you do as a coach? Teach all the kids the proper fundamentals, or simply let each kid hit every stroke any way they want to?

I am always curious when people bring up the fact a Shawn Marion made it in the NBA with an ugly jump shot.

Does this mean coaches should simply stop teaching or correcting technique because 1 out of 10000 talents can make it even with bad strokes?

So people mentioned Bartoli's flaws and suggested correcting them and she made it anyway. How about the thousands of others who never reached their tennis potential because they did not correct the flaws?

In Bartoli's case, it doesn't appear that her unique strokes/serving stance, etc are "flaws" but rather the way her father designed them (for specific purposes) and they apparently work well for her.

[TCF]

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[lala28m]

Originally Posted by TCF

I never get this school of thought of laughing at people who tried to correct strokes. Okay....so what would you do as a coach? Teach all the kids the proper fundamentals, or simply let each kid hit every stroke any way they want to?

I am always curious when people bring up the fact a Shawn Marion made it in the NBA with an ugly jump shot.

Does this mean coaches should simply stop teaching or correcting technique because 1 out of 10000 talents can make it even with bad strokes?

So people mentioned Bartoli's flaws and suggested correcting them and she made it anyway. How about the thousands of others who never reached their tennis potential because they did not correct the flaws?

No, I'm not talking about the personal coaches who are there, in the trenches, knowing and battling the ins and outs. I'm talking about the critics. Standing on the sidelines, telling the up and comers that they're doing it wrong.
Possibility stands, they may be doing it right for themselves, or will correct it on their own time, in response to their own body and development. Pre-teen & teen years are just so different for everybody.
You can't possibly know why or how the strokes developed how they did, and why they persist or can or can't be corrected for now or forever.
I really believe Bartoli wouldnt have made it any other way.
Different strokes for different folks. (LOL. Sorry, couldn't help myself).

[TCF]

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[arche3]

Originally Posted by Tennishacker

(if your talking about AD)

No one who plays competitive tennis (juniors, college & pros) use a forehand grip to serve.

Any competent coach should be embarrassed to have their student using a forehand grip for serving.

Exactly. Pancake grip is not acceptable for a proclaimed world beater.

[Soianka]

Originally Posted by TCF

Good point. But the broader discussion is that many times people will point to an exception as a cover for a flaw.

Like the Shawn Marion case, or the AD case. Maybe a kid with obvious flaws will still make it.

But as a coach and parent, is that the chance I want to take?

Yes, I agree. That one girl, Deja, whose father posted here is a good example.

She was a very athletic, motivated girl but she was doomed to failure because the techniques she was being taught were so poor.

As for AD, I tend to think (hope) they will correct her game as she develops and correct her serve. They are obviously doing a lot right so far.

[Soianka]

Originally Posted by lala28m

I really believe Bartoli wouldnt have made it any other way.

I tend to think that as well.