Modern Tennis Tips by Oscar Wegner

[5263]

Originally Posted by jmnk

No.
I was asking how it is possible to hit inside out FH while having the racket move from right to left (which I'm assuming is being claimed when one says to pull the racket inwards during the stroke). I just would like someone to draw how that is physically possible.

does this help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...CqGIotM#t=277s

put in your own words or thoughts what you see.
This is how the stroke is done.
Personally I see the hand (with handle in hand) moving rt to left on the contact across the
target line.
Jy supplied a vid that showed it well also.

[JohnYandell]

Suresh,

OK thanks for the clarification...

[jmnk]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

How do you know he means over the ball?
You can also hit i/o on the top half of the ball by swinging right to left.

I'm only concerned with movement in a plane parallel to the court. vertical plane movement obviously affects high/low the ball will travel - but that is beside the point.

To clarify: 12 on a ball is pointing toward the opposite court, 3 is toward the right fence, and so on.

I'm asking how is it physically possible to contact the ball past 6 (which you must do for inside out FH) while the plane of the racket face is moving from right to left (which what would be happening if one were to be pulling the racket in during the swing).

p.s. obviously if the 'pulling/yanking happens only after the contact - than it is a different story. but it would also mean the pulling/yanking has no affect on the ball as the contact has already happened.

[jmnk]

Originally Posted by 5263

does this help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...CqGIotM#t=277s

put in your own words or thoughts what you see.
This is how the stroke is done.
Personally I see the hand (with handle in hand) moving rt to left on the contact across the
target line.
Jy supplied a vid that showed it well also.

No, it does not help. It is really a simple geometry question. You can't possibly propel the ball to the right (as what happens in inside out FH) without contacting the ball past 6 oclock. And you can't contact the ball past 6 oclock if the lane (plane of the racket) is moving toward the circle (a 2 dimensional representation of the sphere) from general area of 3 to 9.

So I'm not being argumentative. I'm asking for a drawing.

[JohnYandell]

jmnk,

It's all about the exact path of the racket in three dimensions at the moment of contact. The swing is always inside out from the start and in my studies almost always on that curve at the contact.

[TennisCJC]

Hit on the wall last night. Worked on taking the hand slowing to the ball and then pulling up, thru and across. Works very well for me. Also, use it in matches but don't think as much in matches. I don't think "yank" or "pull straight across". I think/visualize smooth approach to the ball with the hand to and will think "pull" at contact. In reality, the rackets speeds up just at or before contact but going slow into contact gives me good control and feel. Also, I think the racket actually is moving up, thru and across simultaneously.

By the way, you can hit the lower outside of the ball and still hit an inside out FH by catching the ball a bit later in your swing path. You can hook an inside out FH with R to L action for a righty, or you can catch it more on the inside or middle of the ball and have a bit of L to R action.

I try not to overthink it. Basically, take my hand slowly and smoothly to contact, pull the hand thru contact. I do not stop the natural rotation of the body which adds an element of thru to the shot.

I am also not too concerned that some pros separate their hands just before the bounce. I train by keeping both hands on the throat till the bounce but I may occassionally seperate a little quicker on a very hard and/or deep shop. Key is thinking wait and take the hand to contact very slowly and smoothly. I actually find I play better against pace if I think patience, smooth and compact to contact.

All in all - Oscar's technique works very well for me.

If I try to separate hands before the contact, and think stretch L arm parallel to baseline as part of the prep. I feel too mechanical and it does not work well.

Take the hand to the ball and pull the hand thru. Use the feel of the hand to direct the shot LtoR and height. Keep it simple. Pull faster for power but always accelerate on the pull even if using moderate rally ball pace.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by jmnk

I'm only concerned with movement in a plane parallel to the court. vertical plane movement obviously affects high/low the ball will travel - but that is beside the point.

To clarify: 12 on a ball is pointing toward the opposite court, 3 is toward the right fence, and so on.

I'm asking how is it physically possible to contact the ball past 6 (which you must do for inside out FH) while the plane of the racket face is moving from right to left (which what would be happening if one were to be pulling the racket in during the swing).

p.s. obviously if the 'pulling/yanking happens only after the contact - than it is a different story. but it would also mean the pulling/yanking has no affect on the ball as the contact has already happened.

you lay the wrist back more, swing right to left, make contact more on the side of your body and less out in front.

[jmnk]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

you lay the wrist back more, swing right to left, make contact more on the side of your body and less out in front.

yes. I agree with that. But all you are doing, by laying the wrist, catching the ball 'late' and more on the side - is trying to negate the effect of right to left movement of the racket, no? Because that is the only way to have the racket contact the ball past 6 oclock mark.
If so - why would you than advocate the pulling/yanking if all the rest of the movement (as you have described) is solely to 'undo' what that yanking would normally do??

(sorry, it is not easy to depict in words, I hope you get the point).

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by jmnk

yes. I agree with that. But all you are doing, by laying the wrist, catching the ball 'late' and more on the side - is trying to negate the effect of right to left movement of the racket, no? Because that is the only way to have the racket contact the ball past 6 oclock mark.
If so - why would you than advocate the pulling/yanking if all the rest of the movement (as you have described) is solely to 'undo' what that yanking would normally do??

(sorry, it is not easy to depict in words, I hope you get the point).

I don't advocate yanking.
I don't understand what you are saying here. Can you elaborate or ask in a different way?

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

How do you know he means over the ball?
You can also hit i/o on the top half of the ball by swinging right to left.

I don't know. I am guessing from his argument that is what he is saying, otherwise as you said, there is nothing to discuss!

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by jmnk

sure, the racket may have some forward movement. But if it moves --at all- from right to left than it seems to me it is impossible to have the racket contact the ball anywhere past 6 o'clock mark (meaning between 6 and 12). So it seems impossible to hit inside out FH that way.

If you are coming outside in, yes, it is impossible. Cheetah is talking about inside out.

To me, an inside out movement is a pull in initially, followed by a push out at contact, with the swipe first heading outward from the body. Eventually of course the racket will be pulled in in the follow thru. Kind of an S shape overall, rather than a simple arc.

Originally Posted by jmnk

yes. I agree with that. But all you are doing, by laying the wrist, catching the ball 'late' and more on the side - is trying to negate the effect of right to left movement of the racket, no? Because that is the only way to have the racket contact the ball past 6 oclock mark.
If so - why would you than advocate the pulling/yanking if all the rest of the movement (as you have described) is solely to 'undo' what that yanking would normally do??

(sorry, it is not easy to depict in words, I hope you get the point).

Bounce the ball up in teh air with your racquet like you're doing "ups". the ball goes "up" because the face of teh racquet is up, not because your arm is moving up. Now, do your "ups" and then turn the racquet towards the side fence. The ball does not go up, even though your arm is moving up.. bottom line, the ball goes where the strings are pointed..It is very easy to swing across and hit down the line or inside out. The racquet head just lags a bit more.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by chico9166

Bounce the ball up in teh air with your racquet like you're doing "ups". the ball goes "up" because the face of teh racquet is up, not because your arm is moving up. Now, do your "ups" and then turn the racquet towards the side fence. The ball does not go up, even though your arm is moving up.. bottom line, the ball goes where the strings are pointed..It is very easy to swing across and hit down the line or inside out. The racquet head just lags a bit more.

Wrong. The racket head will follow thru with extension towards the target (CC or DTL) before it turns over, maintaining an almost vertical string plane. It is all in the contact. The ball doesn't care if the racket is lagging or not, or how how the racket moves after contact.

A former pro and famous coach, Peter Burwash, explained in a Tennis Mag article last year how eyes are deceiving. High swing speeds make the casual observer think the pros are not extending through the ball, which is debunked with slow motion video. He also cautioned that rec players employing abrupt across motion produce ineffective strokes and injure themselves.

Peter is a (verified) pro from around Oscar's time whose tournament career record is up for all to see, and owns a huge coaching and management chain and has coached thousands of players. Unlike anonymous coaches here, you can see what he puts it writing and stands by it.

[bhupaes]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

I don't advocate yanking.

Hi Cheetah, just curious... what does the term "yank" convey to you?

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Peter is a (verified) pro from around Oscar's time whose tournament career record is up for all to see, and owns a huge coaching and management chain and has coached thousands of players. Unlike anonymous coaches here, you can see what he puts it writing and stands by it.

Who are these anonymous unverified coaches you keep referring to? John yandell? Dave smith? Oscar? Me?

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by bhupaes

Hi Cheetah, just curious... what does the term "yank" convey to you?

Idk... an abrupt pulling or jerking in a different direction?
I think for Oscar it means to use the biceps to quickly pull to the side or across the ball or something like that.

Personally I don't use my biceps in any conscious discernible manner. However I do often use other parts of my body to pull across on some shots just before contact to increase rhs.

For example I swing with a very loose arm. It couldn't be any looser and it just goes along for the ride (unless I'm having a bad day on the courts where it's not clicking and i'm arming the ball etc). As my chest approaches facing the net and my arm and racquet are still behind and my torso is pulling my arm around i can feel tension in my shoulder and chest from the lagging racquet head. If I choose to I can use my left arm in such a way or increase my torso rotation or the angle of my shoulders etc and it will change the direction or angle that the racquet was originally travelling in. This change in direction will increase the rhs or change the angle of attack for more spin or whatever and I suspect this would accomplish the same effect as Oscar's bicep move. When I do this it's not a huge movement. Just a slight weight shift somewhere or an increase in muscle tension somewhere or just a pull of only an inch or so and that's enough. It looks like I'm swinging with a normal continuous motion but in fact there was a modification in there. I don't suddenly 'yank' abruptly where it would be noticeable.

Imagine if you had a soccer ball on a rope and you were swinging it around and around your body in circles over and over. You feel the weight of the ball lagging behind your pull. Like a hammer thrower in the olympics. While you are swinging the ball around you can pull / tug / yank / jerk / adjust your pull and the ball will go higher or lower and pick up speed right? The greater the difference that you adjust your pull the more the ball will pick up speed and you can feel it because of the tension of the ball lagging behind the pull. It's that kind of feeling and action.

[Relinquis]

my uneducated opinion...

inside out means hitting a forehand from the backhand side of the court to the opponents backhand (assuming both right-handed players).

At contact the strings (racquet face) point to where the ball will go, regardless of if you are pulling, pushing, keeping the racquet stationary or moving it from side to side or up to down. as long as the strings are pointing to the opponents backhand the ball will go there. remember, the ball is moving towards you, it will bounce off your strings and head to where the strings are pointed.

of course, if you want your forehand to be more than just a dink stroke, you will need rotation and/or extension through the ball, but you can hit inside out without moving the racquet as long as the ball is coming to you strongly enough.

[bhupaes]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Idk... an abrupt pulling or jerking in a different direction?
I think for Oscar it means to use the biceps to quickly pull to the side or across the ball or something like that.

Personally I don't use my biceps in any conscious discernible manner. However I do often use other parts of my body to pull across on some shots just before contact to increase rhs.

For example I swing with a very loose arm. It couldn't be any looser and it just goes along for the ride (unless I'm having a bad day on the courts where it's not clicking and i'm arming the ball etc). As my chest approaches facing the net and my arm and racquet are still behind and my torso is pulling my arm around i can feel tension in my shoulder and chest from the lagging racquet head. If I choose to I can use my left arm in such a way or increase my torso rotation or the angle of my shoulders etc and it will change the direction or angle that the racquet was originally travelling in. This change in direction will increase the rhs or change the angle of attack for more spin or whatever and I suspect this would accomplish the same effect as Oscar's bicep move. When I do this it's not a huge movement. Just a slight weight shift somewhere or an increase in muscle tension somewhere or just a pull of only an inch or so and that's enough. It looks like I'm swinging with a normal continuous motion but in fact there was a modification in there. I don't suddenly 'yank' abruptly where it would be noticeable.

Imagine if you had a soccer ball on a rope and you were swinging it around and around your body in circles over and over. You feel the weight of the ball lagging behind your pull. Like a hammer thrower in the olympics. While you are swinging the ball around you can pull / tug / yank / jerk / adjust your pull and the ball will go higher or lower and pick up speed right? The greater the difference that you adjust your pull the more the ball will pick up speed and you can feel it because of the tension of the ball lagging behind the pull. It's that kind of feeling and action.

Thanks, I get what you are doing. What I do will probably qualify as a legitimate "yank", I think. I pull the racquet by the handle towards the ball (I hope smoothly!), and then apply a combination of ISR and biceps contraction close to the contact point, which can be quite abrupt. I think this is what Oscar means by "yank". Like in your more subtle shift, this movement really speeds up the racquet head, and releases the wrist. One of these days I will get a video camera going and compare notes... I don't have a decent one at the moment since I've never been interested in photography.

[julian]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

Thanks, that was a helpful post.

I can well believe those empirical claims. Just watching the professionals hit in slow motion, I can see fairly flat racket approaches with respect to the plane of the court. The rackets also transition from forward motion (toward the net) to primarily up and across shortly after contact. In fact, I find this direction change somewhat startling to see, though it appears the ball can significantly brake forward racket motion.

I will continue in
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/newre...te=1&p=7105011

[TennisCJC]

Originally Posted by jmnk

yes. I agree with that. But all you are doing, by laying the wrist, catching the ball 'late' and more on the side - is trying to negate the effect of right to left movement of the racket, no? Because that is the only way to have the racket contact the ball past 6 oclock mark.
If so - why would you than advocate the pulling/yanking if all the rest of the movement (as you have described) is solely to 'undo' what that yanking would normally do??

(sorry, it is not easy to depict in words, I hope you get the point).

Look at the video of Federer hitting an inside out FH - check out the top slow motion views at around 3:55 through 4:10 and it looks to me there is a significant amount of across motion through the contact zone. To me, you are not compensating to work the pull motion into the stroke but rather the pull motion makes it easier to hit the stroke. Earlier in the video, it states there is an up motion through contact of about 15 degrees. And, you can also see the arm fully extend before it bends at the elbow and wraps into WW finish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPLmCqGIotM