New coach, new tennis

[TCF]

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[ga tennis]

Originally Posted by TCF

klu.....I do not want to go there and risk those posters coming back. But lets just say its just the opposite of your post. The person in question plays the exact opposite of what we are going for.

I do not see much movement or athletic ability in the girl's, even at the top. I do not see corner placed serves, followed by reading what the next shot will be, an attack of the short ball with a put away. I do not see a great athlete getting in and out of the corners.

I see praying the serve goes in, staying way behind the baseline, resorting to ugly slices off both wings with no purpose, and dumping ball after ball into the net. That player actually plays the same way as most of the girls we have been battling lately.

The unnamed player is the poster person for the style that we are running as fast as we can away from. It simply will not win when they are older and it counts.

A friend of mine saw Hurricaine Black play in AZ. Said it was the ugliest thing she ever saw. Said all she saw was a girl slicing off both wings and doing anything she could do to win. So basically im saying that winning by any means necessary in the 12s is how you win. Those that arent concerned with results and are developing and doing it right are the ones that have a chance.

[TCF]

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[Chemist]

Originally Posted by Number1Coach

the simple problem is we have girls playing soccer and there coaches have them "daily" do footwork drills all different kinds , then we have tennis girls who for the most part stand in the middle of the court and hit the ball right to each other ,,, How many clinics/academy have you been to that spend a serious hour a day on footwork "everyday"? will solve the problem , It's not and athletic thing its lazy athletics plain and simple !

#1 Coach - I am wondering if you make DB work on the endurance. Does he run track on a regular basis? If yes, how often, running sprints or distance? One coach made my son and other kids run about 12 400M in 30 mins, spring to fall. But they just do strength in the winter. I started to make my son run treadmill a few weeks ago twice a week (30 mins and about 4.5 miles). That seems to be very helpful to him - he won 4 3-setters in two days a month ago.

[ga tennis]

Originally Posted by TCF

Yes, she is another one that slices off both sides for utterly no reason, just like our 'friend'. And her serve, and her older sister's serves, are not very good. All are winning right now. Hmmm, this seems to be a theme.

Its a reason she does it. Winning is ALL that matters. By the way I LOVE HER DAD!! He is a great guy!!!! And she is a great kid.

[Chemist]

Originally Posted by ga tennis

A friend of mine saw Hurricaine Black play in AZ. Said it was the ugliest thing she ever saw. Said all she saw was a girl slicing off both wings and doing anything she could do to win. So basically im saying that winning by any means necessary in the 12s is how you win. Those that arent concerned with results and are developing and doing it right are the ones that have a chance.

Saw a top 30 (TRN) senior girl in Phoenix play. She would throw high moon ball with little spin like 1 out of 5 shots.

I agreed many girls are not athletic - they look so good hitting crosscourt to each other; but miss shot after shot for drills that require running corner to corner. The girls with great athletic ability, tough mental and good skills would end up at the top of the ranking lists for juniors and seniors. Another observation - girls seem to stop improving after reaching 16-17 and may even start to slow down. Claire Liu (12?) recently beat a D1 woman from a top program in Jr USTA vs NCAA shootout in Portland. Boys can continue to improve and get stronger thru college. Is it biological or losing focus?

[TCF]

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[Freak4tennis]

Originally Posted by TCF

Yes, she is another one that slices off both sides for utterly no reason, just like our 'friend'. And her serve, and her older sister's serves, are not very good. All are winning right now. Hmmm, this seems to be a theme.

Hey TCF; I saw this a while back but really didn't pay attention to it. Is someone really kidding.

"Thought it was the final straw ? You Back ? if so just sit back and listen to me and your girl has a chance at top 20 in the nation in the 14 's maybe 16's if you listen . Mine is tried and true , BtW we will be in Spain in Jan working with the Rafa kid just got the invite , he is a wounded bull and is needing hits guess who they called ?"

[tball2day]

Danger Will Robinson........don't bite!

[jigglypuff]

Originally Posted by ga tennis

A friend of mine saw Hurricaine Black play in AZ. Said it was the ugliest thing she ever saw. Said all she saw was a girl slicing off both wings and doing anything she could do to win. So basically im saying that winning by any means necessary in the 12s is how you win. Those that arent concerned with results and are developing and doing it right are the ones that have a chance.

+1 ... also very disrespectful to the line judges.

[TCF]

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[hhollines]

Originally Posted by ga tennis

NO!!!! We have mainly a bunch of girls that have played since 5 or 6 but only a handful of athletes. Thats why we keep pushing because i know my daughter is one of the best 5 athletes in the south but she losses to alot of these girls because my daughter plays big girl tennis and doesnt really have the fight yet. I would say 95% of the girls that win just fight hard and keep the ball in play. Only a handful are actually doing it right. To play a professional type game at 11 is very difficult and it takes a little longer to develop. Thats why im not worried because i know that when the game comes together its gonna be a beautiful thing. You gotta see the big picture you cant get caught up in the now and play the social comparison game. I see her play now and i know already what its gonna look like at 17 or 18 WOW!!!

Great post and I've enjoyed reading all the comments. From my perspective, it's not a simple issue and "big girl tennis" has more than one definition. What is determined as "actually doing it right" isn't clear cut (again, many different answers and perspectives). An individual's game varies based on so many different factors (from Erani to Serena to Wadwanska, etc.). My 2 cents . . . it's about footwork and good technique, then taking individual physical, mental, and psychological factors (and limitations) of the individual into consideration while developing their unique game based on their unique overall make-up.

I don't know what "do it right" means . . . I've seen, in every sport, individuals so called "do it wrong" only to become great players, then what was previously "wrong" is now "right "

My daughter played in the 12s in Tucson and we watched Hurricane beat Josie. I think Josie's game is much better set for when she is older but I won't rule out Hurricane (who knows what she could add or change down the road, but we'll see). This is a complicated issue . . .

[TCF]

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[hhollines]

Originally Posted by TCF

Ga and I have been around the juniors for 20 plus years....so let me explain his 'doing it right'. It has nothing to do with how a player develops over time.

He is talking about a phenomenon with a long track record....focusing on winning early using bad strokes and serves. Putting too much emphasis on the 12s for example.

If a girl is winning in the 12s like Serena and Venus did before they left juniors, playing a great game, fine. If they are winning with pancake serves and moonballs up the middle and slices off both wings....not good.

Does that mean none of the later type will change...of course not.

But what GAtennis and I can tell you, from decades of experience, is that in the vast majority of cases, they do not change the problems and get blind sided in the 16s-18s. The overwhelming odds are that the girls winning the wrong way in the 12s will get addicted to the winning, and never make the adjustments needed as they age.

TCF, I don't know you and I mean no disrespect to you or GA. However, I've been around also and I understand the game (just new to this group). I don't disagree with what you said but I added my perspective. It is true that many 12s winning the wrong way don't change but some do and some develop late . . . our focus on solid technique and good footwork.

[coaching32yrs]

Coach: Please provide a little background on Madison Brengle. Did she go to USTA HP? For how long? If not, where did she train. I watched her match at Aussie Open qualies last night and would be interested to know about her training.

[TCF]

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[TCF]

Originally Posted by coaching32yrs

Coach: Please provide a little background on Madison Brengle. Did she go to USTA HP? For how long? If not, where did she train. I watched her match at Aussie Open qualies last night and would be interested to know about her training.

If I remember, she was coached mostly by her mom. But I think she also worked later on with Paul Roetert who is a USTA man.

[hhollines]

Originally Posted by TCF

Sounds like we are all on the same page. I would estimate maybe 5% of the ones winning the wrong way in the 12s change over time. Just a rough, off the cuff, thinking back over the years, estimate. Could be wrong.

Agreed!!!! you are likely right on at 5% (or lower).

[Chemist]

Originally Posted by TCF

A great book by Jozef Drabik called Children and Sports Training studies this exclusively. The difference in boys and girls is epic.

A male will keep developing all the way into the 20s. A 22 year old male can be WAY faster than a 15 year old boy of equal talent. A 22 year old women will not be much faster than a 15 year old of equal talent.

The girls improvement chart is mind blowing. Their improvement in speed and strength literally hits a ceiling anywhere from age 12-14, depending on the girl. After that the improvement must come from strength training and experience.

This was an eye opener. He has so much data in his book. A well trained 12-13 year old girl, in many case, is almost at her peak in speed! A 12-13 year old boy can double his speed and power again by age 20.

So we are talking 2 totally different training realities. If your girl plays tennis and trains physically with a solid program....by age 12-14 you will know about where her peak in speed and reactions will be. With a boy, you do not.

Now if a girl never trains? Totally different. An untrained girl, of any age, will show huge improvement once training commences. But it is really a surprise to many that if a young girl starts fully training at age 6-7, by age 12-14 she will be about as fast as she will ever get.

Of course strength training, anticipation training, reaction training can improve them further after these ages....but the improvements are at a snail's pace compared to boys.

Back in the day a 12-13 year old girl could compete on tour for just that reason, women hit a ceiling of improvement. Now its way tougher due to the size of the players. Even after they stop improving speed wise, they need a more mature mind and body on tour. They may stop increasing their speed, but the teen girls can still lift and add muscle mass and their bones and ligaments have to mature.

So its biological. I recalled that Christina McHale wrote for Tennis that she spent more time on fitness training than hitting tennis balls.

[klu375]

Originally Posted by TCF

klu.....I do not want to go there and risk those posters coming back. But lets just say its just the opposite of your post. The person in question plays the exact opposite of what we are going for.

I do not see much movement or athletic ability in the girl's, even at the top. I do not see corner placed serves, followed by reading what the next shot will be, an attack of the short ball with a put away. I do not see a great athlete getting in and out of the corners.

I see praying the serve goes in, staying way behind the baseline, resorting to ugly slices off both wings with no purpose, and dumping ball after ball into the net. That player actually plays the same way as most of the girls we have been battling lately.

The unnamed player is the poster person for the style that we are running as fast as we can away from. It simply will not win when they are older and it counts.

Just re-watched the OB2012 clip posted by zootennis and others. I guess you have a very high standard because I see a very good little athlete that fights and runs for every ball. Don't you want more girls like her playing tennis? I am not talking here about technique, movement efficiency or tactics.