Modern Tennis Tips by Oscar Wegner

[5263]

Originally Posted by treblings

very interesting, thanks for pointing that one out to me

You are welcome of course and I think you will see that is pretty consistent if
you get to see nice video angles like that one.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by sureshs

LOL do you even know what he is talking about? Contributes 4 times to what? You thought speed right? It is starting direction. He is saying the face angle determines the launch angle to a great extent.

Are we talking about the launch angle here? No. You should at least read before you post.

The ball should roughly go perpendicular to the string plane, so the face angle will be the main factor. It is so obvious. We are discussing extension and across movements here.

But this is a great teaching moment.

A short swing from close to the ball is called what? A put.

Is the drive done by bringing the club head close to the ball and then accelerating? Or does the swing start gaining movement from way back over the head on the other side and then explode into the ball? Does the golfer gently find and catch the ball and then accelerate on the drive?

If he does that, he would be putting. In tennis, the ball would not even clear the net.

As usual you have no idea what you are talking about. How it relates to tennis and oscars teachings is not acceleration to impact. But rather the angle of the racket face at contact. Regardless of the arc of the swing of the arm. It is supporting oscars view that all you have to do is manipulate the hand in the direction of the shot. And it has a bigger impact on accuracy than the swing path. Just point the face in direction you want it to go. And pull across at a different vector. And the ball go in the direction you point the racket face even while the arms swing arc can differ.

Please learn to apply actual points the article is making instead of misapplying them to make a point about something it has nothing to do with. It has nothing to do with getting the ball over the net. Follow your own advice and comprehend what you read.

Its like if you posted a comment about how olympic swimming is done in pools with chlorine and then some person says to you,"your wrong because surfers compete in the ocean". Wtf?

[Raul_SJ]

Originally Posted by sureshs

I wish mods would delete such posts as above which prevent people like TCF from absorbing Oscar's tips.

Aren't you the guy that was outed in a previous thread, by John Yandell and others, for possessing
a collection of pirated instructional tennis videos?

That Oscar thread has since been deleted, which I find suspicious...

Have you ever responded to that?

Originally Posted by sureshs

LOL do you even know what he is talking about? Contributes 4 times to what? You thought speed right? It is starting direction. He is saying the face angle determines the launch angle to a great extent.

Are we talking about the launch angle here? No. You should at least read before you post.

The ball should roughly go perpendicular to the string plane, so the face angle will be the main factor. It is so obvious. We are discussing extension and across movements here.

But this is a great teaching moment.

A short swing from close to the ball is called what? A put.

Is the drive done by bringing the club head close to the ball and then accelerating? Or does the swing start gaining movement from way back over the head on the other side and then explode into the ball? Does the golfer gently find and catch the ball and then accelerate on the drive?

If he does that, he would be putting. In tennis, the ball would not even clear the net.

Huh? What? Ok, so you don't know anything about golf either. I've been a scratch player for 15 years or so, but that means nothing in the world of internet gurus like yourself..Anyway, what they're finding out through trackman (and this runs counter to conventional wisdom) is that the club face at impact is what determines WHERE/ON WHAT LINE the ball starts on. (left to right dispersion) And this is true regardless of WHAT PATH the club is traveling on....inside out, outside in etc....THE PATH of the club is what is responsible for the spin axis, or the curvature of the ball in flight. (fade or draw) EXAMPLE: TOUR PLAYERS: Those that play a fade shot, create a path the produces fade spin WITH the clubface "toed down" or slightly closed at impact, so the ball starts a little left of the target.

Incidently, this whole swing down the target line (extension towards the target) vs in an arc is a topic of debate in the golf world as well. But not really a very good one. Those that teach the game know (through studies and video) that the club is traveling in an arc (to create angular speed). It has to. Swinging a club, or a racquet in an extended down the line manner is slow, stiff, and inefficient.



Arche addressed very well the basic parallel with a tennis stroke, and how the racquet can move in an arc, and yet with hand direct it to different quadrents of the court. And so one gets the benefit of angular speed and the ability to direct the ball (with different amounts of wrist layback) to any part of the court. Having said that, if you wish to run around the court and always direct the racquet/path down the inteded shot line, be my guest. It's terribly inefficient.

Having said that, I'm not discounting different amounts of extension on an arc. There are a multitude of different swing shapes. The underlying isssue, though, is that you need not direct the path/racquet down the intended target line to get it to go there.

P.S Did you even try the "ups" example i gave. And if so, what does that say about the path vs the racquet face.......I'll save you the time..The implications are that the path has very little to do with where the ball starts. It's all racquet face angle at impact.

[Povl Carstensen]

I think it has been established that the racket can move across the ball outside in, while the ball goes inside out. It is a matter of the angle between the ball and the racket. And apart from the inside out direction, this also provides outward spin. And this goes for shots in other directions, and other spins as well, topspin, slice, right spin, left spin, horisontal, and vertical direction. The racket can go up, and the ball down. The racket can go down, and the ball up. The racket can go left, and the ball right, and vice versa. Ofcourse there is a foreward component to the shot also, but that does not change this, and is pretty obvious imo.
Btw, I am not really sure I am an advocate of Wegners advice of using the wrist to adjust this. I would tend to recommend laying the wrist back and letting it primarily be a result of body position and timing. Allthough I do probably lay my wrist back more in an inside out fh, than in a cc.

[5263]

Originally Posted by Povl Carstensen

Btw, I am not really sure I am a an advocate of Wegners advice of using the wrist to adjust this. I would tend to recommend laying the wrist back and letting it more be a result of body position and timing.

Does Oscar say it that way?
I laying the wrist back a form of using the wrist to adjust?
thanks,

[Povl Carstensen]

That is what I thought I saw and heard in the video where he sat on the chair, etc. But perhaps I am wrong.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by Povl Carstensen

I think it has been established that the racket can move across the ball outside in, while the ball goes inside out. It is a matter of the angle between the ball and the racket. And apart from the inside out direction, this also provides outward spin. And this goes for shots in other directions, and other spins as well, topspin, slice, right spin, left spin, horisontal, and vertical direction. The racket can go up, and the ball down. The racket can go down, and the ball up. The racket can go left, and the ball right, and vice versa. Ofcourse there is a foreward component to the shot also, but that does not change this, and is pretty obvious imo.
Btw, I am not really sure I am an advocate of Wegners advice of using the wrist to adjust this. I would tend to recommend laying the wrist back and letting it primarily be a result of body position and timing. Allthough I do probably lay my wrist back more in an inside out fh, than in a cc.

Pros hit inside out in the same body position as an inside in so they do not telegraph the intended shot. The variable being the amount of wrist layback to dictate direction. The hand facing the way you want it to go. Exaxctly as oscar describes. There are other subtle differences but body position and foot work is generally the same.

[5263]

Originally Posted by Povl Carstensen

That is what I thought I saw and heard in the video where he sat on the chair, etc. But perhaps I am wrong.

Hey, you may be right, especially if it came from an interview comment. Often
things can be said that make sense in context and based on the discussion that
may not be the best stand alone info.

He does talk about using the hands to control shots and how tennis is played
with the hands. Much of what is done with the hands will come from the wrist
I guess, but when I think of using the wrist in tennis, imo it is more about using
the wrist for power or spin with an excessive action.
Very hard to discuss wrist use in tennis due to different perspectives about it.
thanks

[TCF]

The posts by tennisballa and arche3 really nailed it out of the park. I have been coaching for 20 plus years and have lots of coaching buddies much smarter than I am, but who do not post here.

The reasons are all the same. A few very prolific posters will dissect every post. They will use physics and/or obscure logic to twist and muddy any basic instruction that is given.

By the end of the thread everyone's head is spinning and even the most fundamental instruction tips are lost. I could not imagine being a tennis newbie here....trying to pick out the good tips that would actually help them, from all the confusing noise, would be impossible.

If LeBron James had his every movement analyzed by these posters, and tried to muddle through and follow all their analytical advice, the poor guy would be so confused he would not be able to walk and chew gum anymore.

[sureshs]

Please don't derail the thread by useless posts about golf and arguing about it.

You guys are not letting Oscar post his tips.

Keep it focused on tennis, not golf, and don't argue with each other. Direct your posts to Oscar, and analyze his posts only.

[Wegner]

Balance and Position
Most coaches emphasize body positioning and balance to execute a stroke.
Unfortunately, in my opinion, it is this emphasis that traps the attention of the individual and detracts from the stroke.
Furthermore, tennis is a game of emergencies, so you are forced to hit on the move, on the run, your opponent sometimes jams you, etc.
An accomplished player would focus on his hand executing the stroke, and let his instinct help to accommodate the rest.

Push vs. Hitting
In modern tennis groundstrokes, the idea of pushing is more adequate as you approach the ball than that of hitting through it.
In a hit you have fully accelerated by the time you make contact.
In a push, you feel as if you touch the object first and then exert your power.
To clarify this concept of pushing, restrain yourself by deliberately having your racquet approach the ball slowly, and then, as you are about to touch it, accelerate fully and forcefully to the finish, UP AND ACROSS.
Rather than a forward impact, work on brushing the ball as if ripping the cover off of it.
This gives you a longer contact and much more spin and control.
On the forehand and two handed backhands, most top pros pull across and backwards where the racquet head, at the finish, has described a full windshield-wiper and is pointing back, with the butt of the racquet as if taking a picture of where the ball is now going, and/or beyond that point.
Exaggeration? That may be the answer to improvement in your own game.
Have you noticed this finish in the best pros?

A Painful Time
In the early 1990s the Tennis Industry Association, together with the USTA, commissioned a survey on tennis participation.
One of the findings of this survey was that an easier way to start the game needed to be put in place.
That finding was not taken care of properly in the USA.
Making tennis easier includes open stance, hitting up and across the ball, stalking rather than preparing early, and other obvious developments which make tennis a much more natural (and much easier) sport to play.
I had done that earlier for Spain and Brazil, and in 1989 with the publication of my first book, Tennis in Two Hours.
Russians and Eastern Europeans, including coaches in Belgrade, in possession of that book, followed suit immediately.
I followed that with a 1992 book sequel, of similar content, and with work on ESPN International that affected tennis worldwide.
The quantity of quality players developed thereafter overseas from that methodology has been, as I predicted in the 1989 and 1992 books, phenomenal.
If people wonder which is the “why” the USA has fallen behind in many aspects in tennis, there is your main answer.
For those interested, here is the 1992 book for free:
www.tennisteacher.com/ebook.html

It’s Feel
One of the most accomplished abilities is to focus on the feel of the grip of the racquet on the hand.
On the forehand, the index finger is key, leading the action with an upward pull.
On the two-handed backhand, the index of the left hand.
On the one-handed backhand drive the base of the thumb.
These are generalities: you need to find what works best for you. Don’t press the grip tightly, where you feel equal pressure on all of your hand. Relax the grip.

A Balancing Time
Balance is a thing you actually learned at the young stages of life. The goal early in life is not to fall. Balance is a natural thing to adopt.
If you teach balance and position at the conscious level as a must, balance and position may be perfect but the ball may hit the player on the head (a humorous idea) because his attention is on enforcing the wrong thing.
High level tennis, in my opinion, is played with the hand. As a beginner you can learn the basic stroke just standing there facing the net with someone feeding you an easy ball. Gradually the body will adjust by itself.
Eventually, learning to lose your balance develops speed around the court.
There is no need to consciously teach “footwork”.
Just do drills that will develop speed and naturality.
The tennis court is small, a few steps to the right, a few steps to the left, and a few more forward and you cover the whole court.
Focus on your hand and the ball and results will speak for themselves.

Focus On Your Hands
The ball stays on the racquet a few milliseconds if you hit flat, longer if you brush across.
To optimize your focus on feel it is better to maximize your sensations on a longer time span.
I recommend to focus on the feel of the hand at the ball contact and at the finish, when the racquet is already pointing behind you, getting the sensation of acceleration between one and the other.
This way you become aware of the connection between the feel of the ball, the finish, and the resulting placement of the ball.
Racquet head speed at the top level is greatest closer to the end than at the impact, which tells the intention of the player to go towards the stroke’s end.
Tracking the ball as if going to catch with your hand, not your racquet, is another simple way to facilitate your strike.
Rather than preparing early, track the ball with the racquet on both hands as long as possible, then go back and forth with your dominant hand alone for your swing.
You don’t need to swat at the ball.
Find it easily in front, while accelerating up and across. You’ll see it speed up with great control.

[arche3]

Thanks Oscar. I'll have a look at the book.

[TCF]

Thank you for today's tips Oscar! A good read and very much appreciated.

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by Wegner

Furthermore, tennis is a game of emergencies, so you are forced to hit on the move, on the run, your opponent sometimes jams you, etc.

There is no need to consciously teach “footwork”.
Just do drills that will develop speed and naturality.

Some interesting points Oscar, thanks for sharing your ideas.

Just on the points above, I have heard many times the phrase "tennis is a game of emergencies", but I have always thought that makes it sound like a passive game for the player it refers to - in other words you have to just deal with what the opponent sends you. Personally I prefer players to think about what they can create rather than what they cope with.

When you refer to "footwork" do you in fact mean "movement"? I feel there is a difference between the two. From what I have read of your work and the stuff I have done with Andy and John over here, I think you mean movement to the ball should come naturally. There are a couple of specific footwork patterns which can be anything but natural which are essential skills for high level tennis, which need to be taught in my opinion.

Would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Cheers

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

Some interesting points Oscar, thanks for sharing your ideas.

Just on the points above, I have heard many times the phrase "tennis is a game of emergencies", but I have always thought that makes it sound like a passive game for the player it refers to - in other words you have to just deal with what the opponent sends you. Personally I prefer players to think about what they can create rather than what they cope with.

When you refer to "footwork" do you in fact mean "movement"? I feel there is a difference between the two. From what I have read of your work and the stuff I have done with Andy and John over here, I think you mean movement to the ball should come naturally. There are a couple of specific footwork patterns which can be anything but natural which are essential skills for high level tennis, which need to be taught in my opinion.

Would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Cheers

You are right, Ash. A lowly player like myself (unlike the skilled players here) did not find it natural to put the outside foot out first, or to turn sideways on overheads and shuffle step backward, instead of just moving backwards. It is surprising that in the tennis hotbed where I live, most club players have not learnt it naturally either. Just the other day, there was a Tennis Channel clip which emphasized the coaching of getting the dominant foot forward for a close to the net forehand pick up shot, and how that made a huge difference in the strength of the shot. This was an advanced junior, and he still needed to be taught. I have also seen coaches drill juniors over and over again about the first big step followed by small adjustment steps.

Also, tennis being a game of emergencies seems to contradict the claim of there being too much time available on ground strokes as the ball slows down on approach. One thing you notice about high level players is how they anticipate and appear to be always there without going into emergency mode. You are right that treating tennis as a series of emergencies creates a passive and reactive outlook, and is unfortunately too common among club players.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by 5263

Read the post again. I didn't say you wanted to earn respect. Just stated you
would have respect if you did as you claimed you did.

Please don't derail the thread by going after me when footwork and other stuff is being discussed.

[Power Player]

I agree about footwork. It is not natural to start with the outside foot, but that is what works best for me. It changed my strokes dramatically to focus on my feet.

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by 5263

This type translation accounts for most of the misunderstanding related to
his work. Oscar Even has a Modern Footwork video!

"There is no need to consciously teach “footwork”." Oscars own words in this thread and my reason for asking for clarification from him, as i disagree (assuming he means "footwork" rather than "movement").

[5263]

Originally Posted by Ash_Smith

"There is no need to consciously teach “footwork”." Oscars own words in this thread and my reason for asking for clarification from him, as i disagree (assuming he means "footwork" rather than "movement").

LoL, Yes, ....but in this context-

"As a beginner you can learn the basic stroke just standing there facing the net with someone feeding you an easy ball. Gradually the body will adjust by itself.
Eventually, learning to lose your balance develops speed around the court.
There is no need to consciously teach “footwork”."

That makes a big difference to me.