Poly causes PAIN...what's up with that??!!

[pvaudio]

Originally Posted by fortun8son

True, but the swing mechanics are different when you have to sit.
It does force one to 'arm' the ball, which may result in neck and shoulder issues.

Oh absolutely I agree. I also admit I am next to completely ignorant on the subject aside from seeing a few matches courtside. So I shall defer to the stringer and player

[AlfaAce]

Wouldn't a full bed of natural gut (without BT7) be the best choice?

[ChicagoJack]

Originally Posted by fortun8son

Take note, guys.
Chicago Jack may well be right in his pinched nerve diagnosis.
Numbness and tingling are probably not due to equipment.

Well... that's not *quite* what I'm saying. I developed a really nasty case Lateral Epicondylitis (Tennis Elbow), my first ever, in my 30+ years on the court this past summer. This occurred shortly after experimenting with full beds of poly and then switching to a 2012 PD+. The tingling in the hands that the OP is feeling was my very first symptom, I felt that for a few weeks, followed by the classic TE symptoms of soreness around the upper forearm near the elbow.

While I do see clear correlation with my own, and BruceD's equipment choices, (you'd have to be living under a rock somewhere not to see the correlation btwn stiff racquets, stiff strings, and arm issues) it's only part of the picture. I'm just focusing on explaining what is going on with the tingling, because that sensation, when it occurs, can be pretty alarming if you don't know what the heck is going on. It's also what there is to do first, get the inflammation and tingling under control.

As described in greater detail in my previous post, tingling in the lower limbs is symptomatic of the "double crush" where nerves are entrapped in at least two locations. The cause of the entrapment is inflammation.The cause of the inflammation, is some underlying hard or soft tissue problems (again in at least two locations). Turns out I have a little disc bulge in my C2 - C3 disk area, causing a little nerve compression there. That in itself, wasn't a tingling issue until I got the classic TE trouble as well. But it could be any two locations, shoulder + tricep, whatever.

There was a guy in the 2012 Babolat PD club when I was hanging in there that had the same tingling in his hands, he took it easy for a few days, iced it up, switched out to a soft multi and was back to playing in a week. Me on the other hand, I'm back to competing on 4 teams per season and 90% recovered. But only after battling it out for 9 months with acupuncture, deep tissue release, icing daily, diet change, racquet change, string change, and lots and lots of physical therapy and yoga. But hey, I got a really effing sweet racquet out of the deal. I would have never gone shopping for a Donnay frame had this not occurred.

If the rest and ice (never more than 10 minutes per hour, but as many hours as possible in the day) does not end the tingling sensation after a few days, Bruce should def go see his Doc, if he hasn't already made plans to do so.

- Jack

[fortun8son]

Pardon the misquote.
I get what you're saying, now.

[ChicagoJack]

Hi FortunateSon - No worries! I wasn't being super clear. Keyboarding with an iphone while being jostled about on the train home isn't going to bring out my best writing. -Jack

[fortun8son]

I emailed BruceD.
Hopefully, I/we will hear back from him soon.

[TheCheese]

Hmm, maybe it has to do with the fact that I'm stringing in the low 30s, then.

[BruceD]

Thanks guys, for all the great info and support!
After listieging to all the advice I think putting down the racquets for a while, is my best option.
WhileI do have a wide variety of racquets to choose from, the hand pain started just after the Frankenstein string job on the Wilson K-fac Bold.
It's strung very low, at 37lbs.X 43lbs. with PP's Vendetta and Gamma syngut crosses.
My workouts consist of coaching the kids by hitting the punctured balls against the wall. I show them strokes by example and only hit a few strokes back to them, occasionally hitting an poorly hit shot that comes my way.
One time I had shoulder pain after hitting with the Fischer M-po.1 for a session, that convinced me that my body wasn't ready for it, that sticking with bigger heads wopuld be better for me now. Maybe I will get stronger and be able to use the smaller 98" head to crush the ball, later.
But for now I need more trampoline effect and spin, to producethe shots I know I can repeat with accuracy.
The MOST stressful thing i do it practice my serves, alone.
It was only the, that my hands started to bother my and that was after ceasing an ice routine I started after the session with the Fischer left me with shoulder pain.
Now, without going over a whole slew of medical history, I do need to mention that I has the same probs with the right hand, after over-doing a video game, Dirt 2, using a joystick controller set that my wrist would be locked for the most part and my arm would be moving wildly.
After using a wrist brace at nigt and part of the day, it went away after a month of NO video gaming. I lost interest with it, not long after that. It was 2 years ago now.
Only since last May, have I took up tennis again, after a 20 yr layoff. My muscles have not turned to goo, but I know they are out of shape. I had hoped that an ultra-conservative approach like this, would make injury less likely. My doctor has helped me with all my issues and has prescribed anti-inflammatory drugs, pain killers and left it at that, for now. He would send me to a specialist, if needed, but Medicare will not pay for anything like chiropractic or acupuncture therapies and I can't afford it, myself.
I will take the advice of the members suggestions, who have had similar experiences and put the sticks down, for now.
My left hand is also affected, to a lessor extent, although I hit with a 1 handed b-hand, so it might be that nerves starting in the spine are affected by the twisting motion I do, to help me generate power.
While I do use a wheelchair, I cheat by putting my feet down as I strike the ball, to get a more stable platform and get leverage to create power. So I'm a bit of a 'hybrid',. myself. That make things a little different that any other player, so it will be hard to find anyone with the exact same set of circumstances, but I think that other's who have pain problems. can help me with their experiences and suggestions, so again, I truly appreciate the responses!
Since my last serveing experiments had steered me towards hitting with more racquet weight, I added lead to all my sticks and the one that gave me the best results, without any extra weight, was an old Head Liquidmetal 5, that has a 107" head and is .5" longer, too. It's 10.5 oz weight, unstrung and 7 pt.head heavy balance is totally opposite from all the others in my bag.
The MOST strenous thing i do, is my own personal practicing of my serve, alone. I hit about 50 balls on one side of the court, serving and then hit back the ones from the other end of the court with ground strokes.
I will have to forgo any further re-development of my own game and experimenting with stringing, to let my arm/hand back..heal so i can continue on rediscovering the fantasick sport we all love!
I will continue coaching the kids, but I will cut down the sessions to once a week and use my LEFT hand, although it, too is affected, but not as much as the right. I play one handed b-hands and do demonstrate hitting with 2, so I'm not sure why it would be affect, too?
For a while, the pain seemed to go away WHILE I was playing and for a time there after, only bothering me at night, waking me up in the morning with painful, tingly numb hands.
"if it works, don't FIX IT" is a good adage, but "if it HURTS, STOP DOING WHAT MAKES IT HURT!", makes MORE sence at this time, I think.
I will have REAL trouble avoiding even bouncing the ball on my racquet, sitting in my room while watching tennis, which i do a LOT of, too!
sigh..
did I mention..?
GETTING OLD SUX!!!

[BruceD]

Originally Posted by ChicagoJack

Well... that's not *quite* what I'm saying. I developed a really nasty case Lateral Epicondylitis (Tennis Elbow), my first ever, in my 30+ years on the court this past summer. This occurred shortly after experimenting with full beds of poly and then switching to a 2012 PD+. The tingling in the hands that the OP is feeling was my very first symptom, I felt that for a few weeks, followed by the classic TE symptoms of soreness around the upper forearm near the elbow.

While I do see clear correlation with my own, and BruceD's equipment choices, (you'd have to be living under a rock somewhere not to see the correlation btwn stiff racquets, stiff strings, and arm issues) it's only part of the picture. I'm just focusing on explaining what is going on with the tingling, because that sensation, when it occurs, can be pretty alarming if you don't know what the heck is going on. It's also what there is to do first, get the inflammation and tingling under control.

As described in greater detail in my previous post, tingling in the lower limbs is symptomatic of the "double crush" where nerves are entrapped in at least two locations. The cause of the entrapment is inflammation.The cause of the inflammation, is some underlying hard or soft tissue problems (again in at least two locations). Turns out I have a little disc bulge in my C2 - C3 disk area, causing a little nerve compression there. That in itself, wasn't a tingling issue until I got the classic TE trouble as well. But it could be any two locations, shoulder + tricep, whatever.

There was a guy in the 2012 Babolat PD club when I was hanging in there that had the same tingling in his hands, he took it easy for a few days, iced it up, switched out to a soft multi and was back to playing in a week. Me on the other hand, I'm back to competing on 4 teams per season and 90% recovered. But only after battling it out for 9 months with acupuncture, deep tissue release, icing daily, diet change, racquet change, string change, and lots and lots of physical therapy and yoga. But hey, I got a really effing sweet racquet out of the deal. I would have never gone shopping for a Donnay frame had this not occurred.

If the rest and ice (never more than 10 minutes per hour, but as many hours as possible in the day) does not end the tingling sensation after a few days, Bruce should def go see his Doc, if he hasn't already made plans to do so.

- Jack

I'm wondering, do I ice my hands down, or the arm, or shoulder? I was iceing AFTER hitting, when my shoulder bothered me, after giving it a break for a week. I kept iceing each time, after laying but used head at night.
Now I'm using heat at night, as it seems to help.
When and where would I use ice, now?
I always thought, use ice right after injury/excersize to prevent inflammation, then heat after 48 hours, to help recover. I use heating pad/hand warmers in gloves and a heating pad at night to help alleviate the pain.

[TennisCJC]

Those rackets you listed in the signature line are not what I would call arm friendly.

If you want to go large and wide with the racket, maybe try a volkl v1 oversized as volkl will eat vibrations.

If you are digging the poly but it causes issues, maybe try the hybrid with the soft string in the mains and poly cross at low tensions. Something like a good multi in the mains at 50-55 lbs and a poly cross -5 off the main tension. Ex: mains 52 with cross at 47.

I have been playing poly's for about 10 years now - mostly hybrids. I have been using multi, gut, or syn gut in the mains with poly cross at low tension (poly never ever higher than 52 bls) for the last year or so, and I am liking it. Started with polys in the mid-to-hi 50s and had wrist and elbow pain but much, much better in hi 40s to low 50s.

Another option is try some of the nylon/poly blends like TF duramix. You'll get some of the poly advantages but it plays a little softer.

Also, you can mix gauges - use 17g poly with 16g nylon as 17g poly is usually a bit softer than 16g poly.

Good luck.

[fortun8son]

^^^ Syngut(or multi) mains and poly crosses sounds like a viable option for you.
We should try it when you feel better.

[Delano]

I had arm problems with poly in the past. I considered giving it up, but I've found a way to use it that works well for me.

First off, I use a copoly (SPPP), which is supposedly a bit less harsh than some other polys.

Next, string low. I started with poly in the low 60s. That sounds nuts, but the original recommendation was to string poly 10% lower, and I was using syn gut at 67lbs. So I went down to 61. That's way too high for poly. I now string it at 45. It took a little adjusting, but I actually think this is how you get the benefits of poly - amazing spin generation at low tensions.

Lastly, restring before the strings go dead. Poly was initially marketed to rec players (and still is) as a durable string for string breakers. I don't think that's a good way to think about poly. You're generally safe playing with nat gut until it breaks because it's a soft string with good resiliency. Poly is the opposite. To me, the "durability" of poly is more of a liability than an asset, because it means it won't break until long after it goes dead (with predictable effects on your arm). One thing - I have found that SPPP, which supposedly has better tension maintenance along with low tension does greatly extend the life of the strings, so I'm pretty sure I use my string job for more than 10 hours. Not totally sure, because my test is to pull the strings back and see if they snap back into place. If they don't, or they're sluggish about moving back into place, that's a pretty good sign that I need to restring.

Now that I use a a copoly, low tension, and restring before it goes dead, I haven't had any trouble at all with arm soreness from poly.

[TennisCJC]

Delano is a smart fello.

[BreakPoint]

There should be a health warning on every pack of poly strings just like there is on every pack of cigarettes.

[JT_2eighty]

Originally Posted by Delano

Poly was initially marketed to rec players (and still is) as a durable string for string breakers. I don't think that's a good way to think about poly. You're generally safe playing with nat gut until it breaks because it's a soft string with good resiliency. Poly is the opposite. To me, the "durability" of poly is more of a liability than an asset, because it means it won't break until long after it goes dead (with predictable effects on your arm).


Now that I use a a copoly, low tension, and restring before it goes dead, I haven't had any trouble at all with arm soreness from poly.

I agree with everything here. Well said and great advice. If only every stringer out there knew about this phenomenon, we'd have a lot less wrist and elbow overuse injuries out there.

[db10s]

Originally Posted by Delano

I had arm problems with poly in the past. I considered giving it up, but I've found a way to use it that works well for me.

First off, I use a copoly (SPPP), which is supposedly a bit less harsh than some other polys.

Next, string low. I started with poly in the low 60s. That sounds nuts, but the original recommendation was to string poly 10% lower, and I was using syn gut at 67lbs. So I went down to 61. That's way too high for poly. I now string it at 45. It took a little adjusting, but I actually think this is how you get the benefits of poly - amazing spin generation at low tensions.

Lastly, restring before the strings go dead. Poly was initially marketed to rec players (and still is) as a durable string for string breakers. I don't think that's a good way to think about poly. You're generally safe playing with nat gut until it breaks because it's a soft string with good resiliency. Poly is the opposite. To me, the "durability" of poly is more of a liability than an asset, because it means it won't break until long after it goes dead (with predictable effects on your arm). One thing - I have found that SPPP, which supposedly has better tension maintenance along with low tension does greatly extend the life of the strings, so I'm pretty sure I use my string job for more than 10 hours. Not totally sure, because my test is to pull the strings back and see if they snap back into place. If they don't, or they're sluggish about moving back into place, that's a pretty good sign that I need to restring.

Now that I use a a copoly, low tension, and restring before it goes dead, I haven't had any trouble at all with arm soreness from poly.

But I break poly before it goes dead...

[BruceD]

One reply mentioned icing my hands to help make the pain go away.
Do I keep doing it, even after I have stopped playing?
I use heat now, because it feels good and seems to relax my hands a little, too.
I know ice helps after an injury and I have had shoulder pain that I use ice for after I play, but after 24 hours, I thought heat was the way to inprove circulation and speed up recovery. So, if I ice now, every 10 minutes per hour, how will that help me recover?

[fortun8son]

I was told (for various injuries) to alternate cold and heat.
The cold reduces inflammation and the heat promotes circulation.

[ChicagoJack]

Originally Posted by BruceD

One reply mentioned icing my hands to help make the pain go away.
Do I keep doing it, even after I have stopped playing?
I use heat now, because it feels good and seems to relax my hands a little, too.
I know ice helps after an injury and I have had shoulder pain that I use ice for after I play, but after 24 hours, I thought heat was the way to inprove circulation and speed up recovery. So, if I ice now, every 10 minutes per hour, how will that help me recover?

Hi Bruce,

I'm gonna give you the long answer, because the short answer is not very intuitive, and won't make much sense.

1. Without out a physical exam, just going by what you are saying, the problem isn't located in your hands. It's not intuitive at all, but the tingling/numbness sensation you feel in your hands, indicates a nerve compression, irriration, or entrapment, somewhere, along the branch of nerves leading to your hand.

2. The most likely locations are where there is joint movement, so that's the areas with all the pesky little tie in muscles around the neck, shoulder, elbow or wrist. The are also some likely trouble spots where the nerves travel through the big muscles in the bicep, tricep and forearm.

3. To locate the trouble spots, and for tingling there is always a minimum of two, a physician will use a series of movement tests, palpation, x-rays, and or MRI, as well as just kind of hearing from you what's happening.

4. So the tingling is a nerve thing, not a muscle thing. Icing is a muscle thing to reduce swelling.

5. Since the problem isn't located in your hands, heat or ice in that location will nether help or harm you, its a complete non issue. You probably enjoy the feeling of warmth there, because well... people like the feeling of warmth. A warm bath feels a whole lot more comforting than a cold bath. However, if the problem is related to nerve irritation somewhere in the wrist, then you want to avoid heat anywhere near that area, as that will promote swelling, and create even less space for the nerve to travel in that location.

6. Heat therapy, alternating with cold, might be useful to you somewhere down the road, when you are in the physical therapy stage, and working on buliding strength. It promotes blood flow, and brings nutrients to the trouble spots. That a good thing but that's not where you are right now. You are in phase one, and inflammation is your enemy #1 right now. The only exception to this rule is that a soak in an epson salt solution will reduce swelling, and warm water works a little bit better than cold, to bring the key ingredient (magnesium) into the body.

7. Since you've not had a physicians diagnosis, which would indicate more clearly the trouble spots of nerve impingement, since he's just sent you home with anti-inflammatories, (typical) I would recco icing anywhere from your wrist to your neck where you are feeling pain. Keeping an ice bag in one spot for 10 minutes can actually cause minor frostbite, so its good to kind of move it around anyways. Ice up for as many hours as you can thru out the day (6-8 times would be super awesome) but for never longer than 10 minutes per hour.

I have a little more to add. But I'm out the door for a doubles match this morning. Didn't want to leave you hanging with questions unanswered. I'll keep checking in. Hang in there my brutha.

-Jack

[BruceD]

Thanks chicago Jack, for all the great info!
That epson salt soak sounds like a low-buck solution, that I like!
The pain and tingling is now lessoning, but I will be takingit easy for a long time, I know.
After a great buy, from a Eb Ay Superseller, that helped out the kids I coach, by donating EXTRA racquets, after Ibasically STOLE 2 Prince 118" size racquets from him! Such a great guy, let the Prince Air Light 118" and a Prince O3 Speedport 118" go for a $5'er each and while the Air-Light's Prince B&W poly was almost new, the O3's Babolat RPM Blast has notchs SO deep in some places, they are over 50% gone!
Tommorow I will go hit the courts with a new partner, that is as rusty as I am and plays on his feet. His only hindrence may be his weight, at close to 300lbs. and he's 6' tall, so he may just surprise me. Or die trying...NOOOOOOOOOO!
HAH, just had to joke it a bit.
I leaded up BOTH sticks to mid 11 oz. 321 gms, ea. and have hit the wall with the light, just ...uh..'lightly', and it feels wonderful! The perfect thing to coach with, as it is big enough to sheild me from errant shots!
Looks like I'm admitting to myself, my age and power level..finally!
I've got much of the vibration levels under controll with my own designed vibration dampers, with a couple of Prince one's, also.
The hand pain is now just in a couple of middle fingers and a tingle in my thumb, reminding me to quit typing and ice it up, now.

Time for the AUSSIE MEN'S FINAL!
Go Djokster, GO!...but

GIVE 'IM HELLLLL ANDY!!!!