The Forehand: Busting misconceptions once and for all

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

No.
Internal rotation of the arm is very important because in greatly contributes to RHS but it doesn't close the racket face.

Yes it does close the face.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

also why is feds racket face opening in the video at 3:00 when his arm is internally rotating?

why? it's obvious isn't it?

[sureshs]

Tell me something. I have one issue with this mini Nadal (though much older than him) and it was amplified today in the cold of the night. This guy has a unique vertical scoop top spin with open face which he has grooved over the years and hits it from anywhere. The ball spin axis is very horizontal, unlike the axes of other players whose spin axis is roughly parallel to their racket in the usual forehand swing, and your racket is also parallel to how theirs was when you swing (if at all I am able to explain this). Those axes are angled to the ground while this guy's is horizontal. So what I find is if my racket is in its usual arc at contact, which means the racket is not entirely horizontal, the spin is climbing up the string plane, making it difficult to control. Should the axis of the racket be horizontal at contact (NOT asking about string plane orientation)? That is not even always possible depending on the height of the ball.

Need some quick solutions.

[rkelley]

No, the racquet should not always be horizontal at contact. For higher contact points it's pointing more upwards generally and you're hitting more across the ball. For lower contact points it's point more downwards. There's a lot of variation possible here because you can raise and lower your hand and bend your knees. It also matters how far outside your body you take the ball. But an important shot to own is one where your hitting across the face of the ball more, on both fh and bh.

[dominikk1985]

on high balls you also sometimes want a closed face to get a flat or downward trajectory of the ball.

against a chest high short ball you can sometimes just slap it down into the opponents field like you do in a table tennis kill.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by rkelley

No, the racquet should not always be horizontal at contact. For higher contact points it's pointing more upwards generally and you're hitting more across the ball. For lower contact points it's point more downwards. There's a lot of variation possible here because you can raise and lower your hand and bend your knees. It also matters how far outside your body you take the ball. But an important shot to own is one where your hitting across the face of the ball more, on both fh and bh.

So that confirms what I thought that the goal is not to keep it horizontal.

Then what is the best way to handle this vertical spin which came from the opponent moving the racket not like the usual path most people have, but with a scooping motion, as if opening a drawer in a chest.

[toly]

Originally Posted by sureshs

So that confirms what I thought that the goal is not to keep it horizontal.

Then what is the best way to handle this vertical spin which came from the opponent moving the racket not like the usual path most people have, but with a scooping motion, as if opening a drawer in a chest.

Usually a ball with a lot of spin has relatively low speed. If, for example, you try to block this ball and if it doesn’t dig into string bed but rolls on the racquet face then you have no control of the ball’s bounce. So, you should hit the ball with significant flat (normal) component of the racquet speed around sweet spot then ball certainly digs into string bed and you will be the boss.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by toly

Usually a ball with a lot of spin has relatively low speed. If, for example, you try to block this ball and if it doesn’t dig into string bed but rolls on the racquet face then you have no control of the ball’s bounce. So, you should hit the ball with significant flat (normal) component of the racquet speed around sweet spot then ball certainly digs into string bed and you will be the boss.

You are saying neutralize spin with pace. But the problem is this guy's balls also jump up high with the vertical spin. Then what to do?

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by toly

Usually a ball with a lot of spin has relatively low speed.

This is true. Nobody hits balls with pace and spin.

[toly]

Originally Posted by sureshs

You are saying neutralize spin with pace. But the problem is this guy's balls also jump up high with the vertical spin. Then what to do?

How should you return kick serve. To control ball’s direction of your return you have to hit it actively and meet the ball around sweet spot to avoid the ball rolling on the string bed. Don’t hit it passively.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by toly

How should you return kick serve. To control ball’s direction of your return you have to hit it actively and meet the ball around sweet spot to avoid the ball rolling on the string bed. Don’t hit it passively.

I don't find kick serves a problem. They always seem to be angling out and counter spin works. This guy's spin is very straight. The counter spin would be to hit it perfectly up with a horizontal racket, which is not possible.

I think it is too difficult to explain and this guy is not like anyone you might have encountered.

[toly]

Originally Posted by sureshs

I don't find kick serves a problem. They always seem to be angling out and counter spin works. This guy's spin is very straight. The counter spin would be to hit it perfectly up with a horizontal racket, which is not possible.

I think it is too difficult to explain and this guy is not like anyone you might have encountered.

As I understand your main questions are

1. How can you eliminate incoming ball’s spin?

2. How can you create your own desirable ball’s spin?

1. IMO, the easiest way to eliminate incoming ball’s spin is hard hitting through the ball (big normal component) around sweet spot – flat stroke. This creates digging effect. The ball digs into string bed, strings hug the ball very hard and stop ball’s rotation. The ball’s outgoing direction will coincide with normal to the racquet’s face. This approach a lot of pros apply very successfully in case of swing volley and kick serve return. Good example is Sharapova. She absolutely doesn’t care about the type of incoming ball’s spin as soon as she is able to meet the ball around sweet spot.

2. If you want create your own spin, just add desirable tangential component to the racquet velocity.

You better forget about creating counter spin by using vertical or whatever tangential component because it is very difficult to control.

[Relinquis]

hey guys.

are you guys discussing how to return a heavy topspin shot? or are you talking about slice or maybe even side spin?

just hit the ball fast enough and the spin it has won't "roll over" your racquet face. you may have to adjust depending on how high the incoming ball is, the direction of it's travel and type of spin (before or after the bounce).

spin is only an issue in these scenarios:
1 - if you are not using high-racquet-head-speed, e.g. blocking a return, drop volley, dinking it over the net or other low racquet head speed feel shots. that's the only scenario where the spin affects contact in a material manner.
2 - (a) if you are hitting after the bounce and the spin places you in a difficult or unexpected position relative to the ball, or messes with your timing. e.g. kick serves, drop shots, trick backspin shots that head back towards the net, strong slices, unexpectedly heavy topspin balls that kick-up high or that kick forward after the bounce
2 - (b) the ball turns in the air and messes with your timing. e.g. sidespin slice.

to address scenario 1 you need either better technique/feel (i.e. practice) or better racquet head speed as appropriate.

to address scenario 2 you need to focus on the ball better and work on adjusting your timing to these shots.

this is all assuming that you are actually able to hit the shot that you want to use under normal circumstances.

[5263]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

This is true. Nobody hits balls with pace and spin.

Can't agree with this although it is more rare. Also both are relative terms based
on what the receiver perceives in both cases.

[5263]

Originally Posted by toly

1. IMO, the easiest way to eliminate incoming ball’s spin is hard hitting through the ball (big normal component) around sweet spot – flat stroke. This creates digging effect. The ball digs into string bed, strings hug the ball very hard and stop ball’s rotation. The ball’s outgoing direction will coincide with normal to the racquet’s face. This approach a lot of pros apply very successfully in case of swing volley and kick serve. Good example is Sharapova. She absolutely doesn’t care about the type of incoming ball’s spin as soon as she is able to meet the ball around sweet spot.

+1 for this above.

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by toly

1. IMO, the easiest way to eliminate incoming ball’s spin is hard hitting through the ball (big normal component) around sweet spot – flat stroke. This creates digging effect. The ball digs into string bed, strings hug the ball very hard and stop ball’s rotation. The ball’s outgoing direction will coincide with normal to the racquet’s face. This approach a lot of pros apply very successfully in case of swing volley and kick serve. Good example is Sharapova. She absolutely doesn’t care about the type of incoming ball’s spin as soon as she is able to meet the ball around sweet spot.

I agree with the 'hard hitting' part, but not the 'digging effect part'.

at impact the ball is trying to climb up the bed, while your low to high swing path is trying to counter that action by forcing the ball down the bed.... so there is merit in the 'hard hitting' so that the racket can dominate the ball.

but, the 'digging effect' is not what you want to persue... because the deeper the dig, the stronger the 'climbing' effect as well..

empirical evidence - to play against the same heavy topspin ball, it's much less effort using a crisp string bed like OGSM, than using a softer bed with natural gut.

it only makes sense - if heavy top comes in, and you hit it with a sheet of glass, there is no spin for you to overcome, as the ball simply cannot climb up the bed.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by 5263

Can't agree with this although it is more rare. Also both are relative terms based
on what the receiver perceives in both cases.

I was kidding. duh

[5263]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

I was kidding. duh

Oooops, sorry about that. many on here do believe that and I was scratching
my head at you agreeing, lol.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by 5263

Oooops, sorry about that. many on here do believe that and I was scratching
my head at you agreeing, lol.

lol. yea i was just teasing toly.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

lol. yea i was just teasing toly.

He is one of the most delicate tennis players in the world, so be careful