Baseball Hall of Fame 2013

[maleyoyo]

Originally Posted by r2473

It's too bad to punish the (all time) greats of the sport just because they have been relegated to the status of "steroid poster boy / everything that is wrong with the sport" in the minds of the public. But at the same time, give a free pass to all the other steroid boys...just because they weren't quite as good as these guys.

I understand your point; however I can’t seem to see any injustice or feel sorry for these guys. After all they are guilty. That puts all of their achievements in questions. Could they have been all time greats without PED or it just meant that PED worked better for them comparing to others.
As for other lesser steroid boys, there are a lot going on behind the scene that we do not know. May be there are other silent bans. Maybe they were given warnings and stopped while the likes of Clemens and Bonds didn’t. Who knows?
We’d like to arrest all the drunk drivers too, but we can’t. I sure don’t feel sorry for the few that are caught and punished since it deters many others from doing the same.

[J011yroger]

What year did steroid use become illegal according to MLB rules?

J

[El Diablo]

^^ 1991, per a directive by Commissioner Fay Vincent, though real enforcement began later.

[Dedans Penthouse]

Originally Posted by r2473

I was referring to some of the posts on this thread.

(I get the feeling you don't like me much)

nah, volleygirl's a babe and you're a dude ... as sure as barry bonds is a juiced-up balloon head

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by El Diablo

^^ 1991, per a directive by Commissioner Fay Vincent, though real enforcement began later.

Exactly. Faye Vincent has said time and time again these supplements were banned even though the players and agents keep saying they werent against the rules when we took them. They were against the rules, its just the players union wouldnt allow any testing or punishment do be done for cheating.

If anyone heard Jim Romes interview today with Goose Gossage, you will hear an adament NO to all the cheaters and I have heard him and others say no HOFers will ever show up to the HOF for these events if these cheaters are voted in.

[maverick66]

Originally Posted by J011yroger

My question is if MLB didn't punish them, and they weren't punished under criminal law, where in the wild blue f*** do the people that write about them in newspapers get off thinking it is their right to punish them?

MLB has hundreds of positive steroid tests on players in the 2000s and they don't tell anyone about them, and they inflict no punishment on the players. (Just like A-Rod who's positive test was leaked by congress)

J

They became the poster boys of the steroid era. The press hates Bonds because he wasnt the nicest guy to deal with and they will never let that go. Its all a show to try and make an example out of certain guys but its honestly a big black eye on the MLB not the players.

I just dont see how you can keep the most dominant hitter of his era out of the hall.

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by maverick66

They became the poster boys of the steroid era. The press hates Bonds because he wasnt the nicest guy to deal with and they will never let that go. Its all a show to try and make an example out of certain guys but its honestly a big black eye on the MLB not the players.

I just dont see how you can keep the most dominant hitter of his era out of the hall.

Bonds has the most MVPs and Clemens has the most Cy Youngs ever but like Goose Gossage said, "theyre accomplishments are all hollow so it really doesnt matter what their stats are." We will just have to agree to disagree on whether they should be voted in or not.

[maverick66]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

Bonds has the most MVPs and Clemens has the most Cy Youngs ever but like Goose Gossage said, "theyre accomplishments are all hollow so it really doesnt matter what their stats are." We will just have to agree to disagree on whether they should be voted in or not.

I really dont care what Goose Gossage says. Eckersley said the same thing and i still dont care.

you dont block out an entire period of time because of this. You cant allow a single person in from the time period if thats the attitude because if you think it was only the top dogs taking stuff you are very naive.

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by maverick66

I really dont care what Goose Gossage says. Eckersley said the same thing and i still dont care.

you dont block out an entire period of time because of this. You cant allow a single person in from the time period if thats the attitude because if you think it was only the top dogs taking stuff you are very naive.

They arent going to have to block out an entire period of time, just the cheaters. There are going to be HOFers from this era. Next year Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and maybe Frank Thomas will get in and there will be guys getting in, there just wont be some of the biggest names and thats fine since they chose to take the big payday that came with cheating, but now they get to pay it back by NEVER being enshrined with the all time greats.

[Angle Queen]

Hmmm, dare I enter the fray?

Like volleygirl, I'm also of the female persuasion. She obviously has both a love and history of the game, as do I. I was a 20-year season ticket holder at a very prominent AAA ballclub, have seen many "stars" both before and "after" their careers...and damn-near followed The Game since Johnny Bench and The Big Red Machine strutted their stuff.

The BBWAA rarely votes anyone in on their first go-round. Less than 50 men....EVER....out of the 1000s of men who've ever played professionally, were tapped in at first chance and they, quite literally, are the Who's Who of Baseball. Anyone who has ever followed The Game knows their names.

This year's crop, with perhaps the exception of Clemens (IMHO) were....ehhh. Bonds was a good but nothing spectacular, almost airhead, outfielder...first with the Pirates then shuffled out to SF. The 'roids clearly made a difference in his at-plate performances. Otherwise, he'd be in the same category as guys like Piazza or Biggio. Solid, even stellar...but not necessarily HOF-worthy.

Don't get me wrong. In my heart, I know there are "cheats" in the HOF. But somehow, I can't quite equate spitballs and sharpened spikes to injecting drugs and betting on any game's outcome.

[J011yroger]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

They arent going to have to block out an entire period of time, just the cheaters. There are going to be HOFers from this era. Next year Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and maybe Frank Thomas will get in and there will be guys getting in, there just wont be some of the biggest names and thats fine since they chose to take the big payday that came with cheating, but now they get to pay it back by NEVER being enshrined with the all time greats.

So it is only cheating if you get caught?

J

[maverick66]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

They arent going to have to block out an entire period of time, just the cheaters. There are going to be HOFers from this era. Next year Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and maybe Frank Thomas will get in and there will be guys getting in, there just wont be some of the biggest names and thats fine since they chose to take the big payday that came with cheating, but now they get to pay it back by NEVER being enshrined with the all time greats.

Wouldnt shock me if anyone of those guys you listed took some kind of PED. It was league wide issue not just a handful of guys. It also obviously wasnt limited to just the homerun hitters as pitchers and some smaller guys have been caught as well.

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by maverick66

Wouldnt shock me if anyone of those guys you listed took some kind of PED. It was league wide issue not just a handful of guys. It also obviously wasnt limited to just the homerun hitters as pitchers and some smaller guys have been caught as well.

Yea Maddux and Glavines 82 mph pitches on the black had to be aided by PEDs

[J011yroger]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

Yea Maddux and Glavines 82 mph pitches on the black had to be aided by PEDs

Well, Andy Pettitte's blistering 87mph cutter was aided by HGH.

J

[r2473]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

Yea Maddux and Glavines 82 mph pitches on the black had to be aided by PEDs

Tell me what you know about "PED's".

What different kinds are out there?

What can these different PED's do for different types of athletes?

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by r2473

Tell me what you know about "PED's".

What different kinds are out there?

What can these different PED's do for different types of athletes?

I am not going to get into a discussion with you. You even make jokes about the brain damage Junior Seau suffered so you take nothing serious.

[maverick66]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

I am not going to get into a discussion with you. You even make jokes about the brain damage Junior Seau suffered so you take nothing serious.

I will agree with him. Your saying just power is generated by these guys shows a lack of knowledge about what peds do.

[maleyoyo]

Originally Posted by maverick66

I will agree with him. Your saying just power is generated by these guys shows a lack of knowledge about what peds do.

Why don’t you share with us then what exactly PEDs do to the players and why the MLB cracked down on PEDs and just announced new testing measures? Is it true that roughly half of the players caught are pitchers?
You can also explain what you meant when you said in earlier post doping is “league wide” in the MLB. By that you mean …50%...70%....or 90%, and how do you come up with that number.
Can you also shed some lights on the legal battle between the MLB and the baseball players/ their lawyers/PR/union on the issues of PEDs, testing, and punishment?
Me, I just thought that players take PEDs for placebo effect and the only side effect is shrinking penises.

[jamesblakefan#1]

Originally Posted by Angle Queen

Hmmm, dare I enter the fray?

Like volleygirl, I'm also of the female persuasion. She obviously has both a love and history of the game, as do I. I was a 20-year season ticket holder at a very prominent AAA ballclub, have seen many "stars" both before and "after" their careers...and damn-near followed The Game since Johnny Bench and The Big Red Machine strutted their stuff.

The BBWAA rarely votes anyone in on their first go-round. Less than 50 men....EVER....out of the 1000s of men who've ever played professionally, were tapped in at first chance and they, quite literally, are the Who's Who of Baseball. Anyone who has ever followed The Game knows their names.

This year's crop, with perhaps the exception of Clemens (IMHO) were....ehhh. Bonds was a good but nothing spectacular, almost airhead, outfielder...first with the Pirates then shuffled out to SF. The 'roids clearly made a difference in his at-plate performances. Otherwise, he'd be in the same category as guys like Piazza or Biggio. Solid, even stellar...but not necessarily HOF-worthy.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about with Bonds. He was named by noted baseball writer Bill James as the best player of the 90s, and this was before PED. In the same class as Griffey, who's definitely 1st ballot. 8x Gold Glover in the 90s, 8x All Star in the 90s, 3x MVP again, in the 90s, only guy ever w/ 500 HRs & 500 steals. Most of his non-HR accomplishments were pre PED, and he was definitely a HOFer before he even touched the stuff. And you have the audacity to say he's 'ehhh'? What are you talking about?

You're gonna tell me right now that Barry Bonds isn't better than Paul Molitor? Or Dennis Eckersly? Wade Boggs? Don't get me wrong, those guys were great, but Bonds is on another level of those guys, PED or no PED.

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by maverick66

I will agree with him. Your saying just power is generated by these guys shows a lack of knowledge about what peds do.

Where on earth did I say that? Are you one whos also cheated so you have to try and make people believe you accomplished something legitimately?