Baseball Hall of Fame 2013

[jamesblakefan#1]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

Youre tired of those who dont want to reward cheating? Some side you chose.

The hall is already full of cheaters. Deal with it.

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by jamesblakefan#1

The hall is already full of cheaters. Deal with it.

The voters decided not to add more to it then, so you deal with it.

[drakulie]

[J011yroger]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

Oh, I guess you have forgotten how many people, including the Red Sox front office thought Clemens was washed up when they let him go and he was doing horrible in Toronto.

Doing horrible in Toronto would be the two years he lead the league in wins and ERA, and won the Cy Young award?

Please, tell me your benchmark for a good year.

J

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by J011yroger

Doing horrible in Toronto would be the two years he lead the league in wins and ERA, and won the Cy Young award?

Please, tell me your benchmark for a good year.

J

Were you watching baseball back then? He had 4 bad seasons in a row with Boston where he won around 40-45 games total if I remember correctly then left for Toronto. Then he started spring training getting bombed in 4-5 starts even worse than he did the last 4 years in boston and felt he needed to do something to prove he was worth the multi million dollar deal and thats when he decided to start with the PEDs and it turned his career totally around. (thats when his trainer said he began cheating with PEDs) He went from on the verge of washed up while clean to going on to winning 4 more Cy Youngs on the PEDs and he. just like Bonds, did this as he got older and for some reason you guys think the PEDs only helped them marginally if at all.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

Then he started training camp getting bombed in 4-5 starts even worse than he did the last 4 years in boston

If memory serves me correctly, Clemens never had great stats during training camps, even when he was with Boston.

To add, he started the year 3-0, giving up 1 earned run in those 3 starts, with 20 strike outs. Additionally, steroids wouldn't work as fast as you are suggesting (beginning to take them at the end of training camp where he sucked, to his first start where he was untouchable). Not saying I think he didn't use them, but just setting the record straight.

One more thing,,,,,,, Don't forget that Clemens struck out 20 batters in 1996 against the Tigers ( a time where you and the "front office" thought he was washed up, and also a time where you suggest he wasn't doing PED's. )

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by drakulie

If memory serves me correctly, Clemens never had great stats during training camps, even when he was with Boston.

To add, he started the year 3-0, giving up 1 earned run in those 3 starts, with 20 strike outs. Additionally, steroids wouldn't work as fast as you are suggesting (beginning to take them at the end of training camp where he sucked, to his first start where he was untouchable). Not saying I think he didn't use them, but just setting the record straight.

One more thing,,,,,,, Don't forget that Clemens struck out 20 batters in 1996 against the Tigers ( a time where you and the "front office" thought he was washed up, and also a time where you suggest he wasn't doing PED's. )

So whyd he cheat or you believe that he didnt?

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

So whyd he cheat or you believe that he didnt?

I answered this question and love the way you ignore the whole of my post.

and for the record, I don't think anyone who cheated or twisted the rules should get into the HOF.


GO GARVEY!!!!!!

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by drakulie

I answered this question and love the way you ignore the whole of my post.

and for the record, I don't think anyone who cheated or twisted the rules should get into the HOF.


GO GARVEY!!!!!!

His trainer is the one who said he began doing PEDs in Toronto and it drastically changed the way he pitched from that point on.

At least we agree that cheaters should not make the HOF

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by jamesblakefan#1

You're starting to sound stupid right now. The argument isn't about if these guys juiced, but when they started and how much it had to do with their success. Guys like Bonds and Clemens were great even before they juiced.

Bonds wasn't "great" in Pitt in the same way he was "great" in San Fran.


Oh, and he was super overrated as an outfielder and his "Gold Glove" awards were a joke. He had a lame duck arm, which is why he was moved from right to left field.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

His trainer is the one who said he began doing PEDs in Toronto and it drastically changed the way he pitched from that point on.

My point, as well as the facts I provided for you stand. He struck out 20 batteries (equaling his record) at the end of the 1996 season with the Red Sox (one of his last starts with them). In addition, PED's won't work as fast as you suggest (he sucked for 4 weeks in training camp, then decided to do PED's, and came out taking no prisoners a few days later.

And again, I'm not saying he didn't take roids or other substances. I'm convinced he did. Probably began takin them at the end of 1996 (while with Boston, and suffering from shoulder problems).

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by drakulie

My point, as well as the facts I provided for you stand. He struck out 20 batteries (equaling his record) at the end of the 1996 season with the Red Sox (one of his last starts with them). In addition, PED's won't work as fast as you suggest (he sucked for 4 weeks in training camp, then decided to do PED's, and came out taking no prisoners a few days later.

And again, I'm not saying he didn't take roids or other substances. I'm convinced he did. Probably began takin them at the end of 1996 (while with Boston, and suffering from shoulder problems).

I dont know how quickly they can possibly work but there was one mediocre pitcher who pitched for the Twins back in that era and he was on a talk show just a few weeks ago and he claimed that he was only able to throw 87 mph until he started on some PED program and in 3 months he was able to throw 95 and threw that hard for 2 years before an injury ended his career.

[drakulie]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

I dont know how quickly they can possibly work but there was one mediocre pitcher who pitched for the Twins back in that era and he was on a talk show just a few weeks ago and he claimed that he was only able to throw 87 mph until he started on some PED program and in 3 months he was able to throw 95 and threw that hard for 2 years before an injury ended his career.

Clemens was throwing near 100 mph his whole career. PED's or roids did nothing to help him improve speed. If it did, he would have been throwing 200 mph. It also did nothing in helping him with control, pitch selection, or movement.

What it did, was to help him recover quicker between starts, thus allowing him to go deeper into games, throw more pitches, and helped strengthen his ailing shoulder which began in Boston the last few years he was there.

[Dedans Penthouse]

Hall of Famer Hal Newhouser vs. non-HOF'er Carl "Duck!" Mays

Wins - Losses / Winning % - ERA - 162 Game Ave.

Newhouser: 207-160 .580% - 3.06 - 16-12
-Carl Mays: 208-126 .623% - 2.92 - 17-11

They can default on Bonds, make Clements do penance, go to hell Bagwell - I don't care.

Newhouser posted his best year in 1944 when our boys were off fighting for 'Parisian Pie' and fighting off The House of the Rising Sun while that shrinking violet slacker was padding his stats against Fenway Park Community College and the like. The stats don't lie~!!!

"The Jelly Beaner" Carl Mays is long overdue in Cooperstown! Writers, right this wrong!

[Dedans Penthouse]

ps, i would've voted for Raines

[volleygirl]

Originally Posted by Dedans Penthouse

ps, i would've voted for Raines

Dedan, Raines is the only one in the poll I did vote for

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by jamesblakefan#1

Bonds was a HOF before he took PED, same with Clemens. It's an absolute joke that baseball writers seem so high and mighty about the integrity of the game when there have been cheats and felons all throughout baseball history. I'm not excusing what they did, but the history of baseball cannot be told without Bonds/Clemens, and McGwire/Sosa for that matter who helped save MLB. They all should be let in IMO. Screw the PED sanctimony.

TRUE THAT...

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by volleygirl

I am sure Bonds' jersey and maybe his bat is in the HOF for the record of HRs he broke while cheating but he doesnt have to be enshrined. Same with Clemens and all the other frauds. They already made out by getting the huge contracts by cheating so you dont have to also reward them by enshrining them into the HOF. Good job voters.

THAT'S illogical...you celebrate the accomplishments but not the person? again it's the phoniness of mlb just seeing their players as cash cows while washing their hands when trouble comes.

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by Fearsome Forehand

I think all of the steroid boys should be forever banned from the HOF. They are a disgrace to the sport. As Tilden was to tennis. As OJ was to football. I think character should matter in HOF voting. Tilden and Simpson are both HOF'ers in their respective sports, sort of an embarrassment to their sports IMHO.

Should Lance be in the biking HOF?

I also think Jack Morris should make it, next year is his last year. He came close this year.

do you think ty cobbshould be banned as well?

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by Fearsome Forehand

I think most of the users have been identified; Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, Roger, Palmero, et al.

If Rose was barred for mere gambling as a manager ( and not against his own team), how does one justify not banning steroid users?

Maybe they should build an annex at Cooperstown shaped like a hypodermic needle and have a special steroid HOF section.

apples and oranges...