Cristophe Rochus: Doping rampant, mentions Nadal and Soderling

[single_handed_champion]

Originally Posted by DropShotArtist

Sure, but by that logic Mother Teresa is also a doper. The point is you have to go after the most likely cases first.

Mother Teresa doping is irrelevant, since she would not be tested by WADA, and I am sure nobody would think any less of her for doing it.

And who is to say who are the likeliest cases? To me, a guy who runs and runs but is clearly a physical specimen is no more suspicious than someone much older who keeps up with him for hours and even prevails over him (apart from others his same age with sudden and quite incredible spurts in performance).

[Speranza]

Originally Posted by Mustard

With the plea bargaining system, how do we know that someone hasn't said to Armstrong "admit to doping, or you'll be in jail and bankrupt etc."? The fact is, we don't know, as plea bargaining corrupts the whole process. It is blackmail, where the blackmailers have all the power.

If you don't even fail a drugs test according to the laws of cycling, why are you even treated as guilty in the first place?

We don't know. You're right, plea bargaining corrupts the process.

But another 'fact', as you say, is that he was doping and is publicly admitting it.

Whether treated as guilty or not, as you say again, he was doping.

Mustard, you're admired by many here, including myself, but to quote someone else in another thread, you're splitting a hair into four here etc. You're trying to change the goal posts now that he's admitted it himself, to a goal regarding corruption and plea bargaining. Please, for your good name. Stop

It matters not that the governing body are corrupt, as I'm sure most sports governing bodies are guilty of at some stage - heck, as most people are at some stage in their lives. The point is, even if others were doing so (and it's sickening that one particular is making money from admitting it), Lance Armstrong was doping.

[DropShotArtist]

Originally Posted by single_handed_champion

Mother Teresa doping is irrelevant, since she would not be tested by WADA, and I am sure nobody would think any less of her for doing it.

And who is to say who are the likeliest cases? To me, a guy who runs and runs but is clearly a physical specimen is no more suspicious than someone much older who keeps up with him for hours and even prevails over him (apart from others his same age with sudden and quite incredible spurts in performance).

I'm talking about the constant absences, the flu virus crap and the practicing on clay the next day . Come on, let's get real.

[jamesblakefan#1]

Originally Posted by Mustard

With the plea bargaining system, how do we know that someone hasn't said to Armstrong "admit to doping, or you'll be in jail and bankrupt etc."? The fact is, we don't know, as plea bargaining corrupts the whole process. It is blackmail, where the blackmailers have all the power.

If you don't even fail a drugs test according to the laws of cycling, why are you even treated as guilty in the first place?

He's admitted to doping and STILL will have to pay back millions of dollars and has had his legacy tarnished forever. The guy fought for so many years all of the allegations, why would he give up now if he was truly innocent? I was looking, and finally found, the one person that still believes Lance to be innocent, even after he says he's guilty.

As for tennis, I wouldn't be surprised if anyone not named Fed, hell even Fed, were found to be a doper. Djok goes from barely being able to finish matches in the heat at AO to being able to take down Nadal in 5-6 hour marathons at the same event a few years later? Sod goes from being a journeyman player to beating Nadal at RG and being a top 5 player? I have suspicions of everyone now.

[Big_Dangerous]

Originally Posted by TMF

Until Fed play exactly like Nadal who's killing his body, and be out for 8+ months, not to mention many people have suspected Nadal, wake me up.

Well I mean look at Rafa, he's paying for playing that way... How many slams has he missed already in his career. How many has Fed missed?

I just don't see how you can say Rafa uses PED's while Fed who has never retired from a match, or missed any slams in his career doesn't...

[nikdom]

This is the reason why teens aren't pulling upsets and there are none in the Top 100. The last teen to win a major went from being a skinny kid to muscular 18 yr old able to physically outplay the top guys. Guess he had the football connections through family to get some vitamins early on.

Most teens don't have that kind of money or connections.

[rainingaces]

I hope when murray is found to be using he has his gold medal and us open taken away.

The only top players i would be amazed if they were using would be delpotro and berdych. The fact that federer is never out of breath is suspicious but i dont think he would.

[President]

Originally Posted by rainingaces

I hope when murray is found to be using he has his gold medal and us open taken away.

The only top players i would be amazed if they were using would be delpotro and berdych. The fact that federer is never out of breath is suspicious but i dont think he would.

Why the hell would you be amazed at Del Potro and Berdych doping? Just like Soderling, both had dramatic breakthroughs and are huge ball bashers. Have you seen the size of Berdych's quads?

[heninfan99]

Seriously. It sounds like a bit of sour grapes to me. I still root for Olivier but rarely have seen Christophe play.

Tips talked about how he was randomly tested while he was away and practicing. I believe they do this randomly.

If everyone's is doing it then it should be easy to get some proof or an eyewitness account but there's nothing. C. Rochus offers no proof so why bring it up? It's libel, I think.

[Speranza]

Originally Posted by Big_Dangerous

Well I mean look at Rafa, he's paying for playing that way... How many slams has he missed already in his career. How many has Fed missed?

I just don't see how you can say Rafa uses PED's while Fed who has never retired from a match, or missed any slams in his career doesn't...

I'm a Federer fan, but I agree entirely with this point. Ralph is suspected due to his physique but mostly due to his playing style. It's unlikely he would want to bulk up, for that won't help him. However, endurance is the matter concerned. At this stage, everyone comes into the discussion.

I'm not trying to say Federer is guilty, but that the endurance aspect of his game works against him in such discussions.

Originally Posted by rainingaces

I hope when murray is found to be using he has his gold medal and us open taken away.

The only top players i would be amazed if they were using would be delpotro and berdych. The fact that federer is never out of breath is suspicious but i dont think he would.

Who would stand to lose more if they were caught? And by caught I'm *implying that the facts were made public for the sake of this conversation. Who? Federer. Now, with all those sponsoring him, and the millions he's worth, do you not think research was done by those companies involved? How much damage could be done to them if Federer was found to be guilty?

BUT, *, I don't believe that if some of the bigger names were caught that the findings would be made public.

[DropShotArtist]

Originally Posted by Big_Dangerous

Well I mean look at Rafa, he's paying for playing that way... How many slams has he missed already in his career. How many has Fed missed?

I just don't see how you can say Rafa uses PED's while Fed who has never retired from a match, or missed any slams in his career doesn't...

You're assuming that missing those slams were due to "injuries". There is no hard evidence that his "playing style" should dramatically reduce his court time. Genetics is a much bigger factor likely.

[rainingaces]

Originally Posted by President

Why the hell would you be amazed at Del Potro and Berdych doping? Just like Soderling, both had dramatic breakthroughs and are huge ball bashers. Have you seen the size of Berdych's quads?

I think berd is a natural talent right from a early age he could hit a big ball. If he is on something it has not made him consistant when and where it matters. His quads might be big but his biceps are not, neither is his neck.

[Crisstti]

Originally Posted by DRII

Please...

Rochus basically includes every player taller than he and his brother in his conspiracies (which is nearly everyone including WTA players).

He also heavily insinuates Nole, but I see you ignored that...

Basically, lol.

Wasn't this the same guy claiming some guy he played against was doping because he came back against him and got a bloody nose?.

[tudwell]

Originally Posted by President

Why the hell would you be amazed at Del Potro and Berdych doping? Just like Soderling, both had dramatic breakthroughs and are huge ball bashers. Have you seen the size of Berdych's quads?

If Del Potro is using some sort of performance enhancer, then I sure don't know what for. He's one of the least muscular guys on tour and his fitness and ability to recover from one match to the next is middling. Sure, he hits big, but he's got a lot of leverage with that stature. Not to say I wouldn't be surprised if he was doping because I wouldn't be surprised if any top tennis player was doping, but he's certainly not one of the most likely candidates, I would think. And also, Del Potro didn't have a dramatic breakthrough in quite the same way that Berdych or Soderling did. They were both established tennis players who for years had been in the top 50 to top 20 range and then made a slam final and established themselves firmly in the top 10. Del Potro was still very young when he won his slam and made a very visible progression into the top ten in the year leading up to that.

[loci]

professional sport is dirty, people, and that includes tennis. end of story.

[rainingaces]

Originally Posted by Speranza

I'm a Federer fan, but I agree entirely with this point. Ralph is suspected due to his physique but mostly due to his playing style. It's unlikely he would want to bulk up, for that won't help him. However, endurance is the matter concerned. At this stage, everyone comes into the discussion.

I'm not trying to say Federer is guilty, but that the endurance aspect of his game works against him in such discussions.



Who would stand to lose more if they were caught? And by caught I'm *implying that the facts were made public for the sake of this conversation. Who? Federer. Now, with all those sponsoring him, and the millions he's worth, do you not think research was done by those companies involved? How much damage could be done to them if Federer was found to be guilty?

BUT, *, I don't believe that if some of the bigger names were caught that the findings would be made public.

Federer wouldnt do anything that could be made to stick. If you take hgh or a boost of something your body produces naturally and a masking agent just before a match the odds of getting caught are not high and like you said it would be in the atps interest to make it internal. Also it would have to be proven beyond doubt using more then one sample and if he plays along match, drinks alot of water ect the level will drop in his blood.

[President]

Originally Posted by tudwell

If Del Potro is using some sort of performance enhancer, then I sure don't know what for. He's one of the least muscular guys on tour and his fitness and ability to recover from one match to the next is middling. Sure, he hits big, but he's got a lot of leverage with that stature. Not to say I wouldn't be surprised if he was doping because I wouldn't be surprised if any top tennis player was doping, but he's certainly not one of the most likely candidates, I would think. And also, Del Potro didn't have a dramatic breakthrough in quite the same way that Berdych or Soderling did. They were both established tennis players who for years had been in the top 50 to top 20 range and then made a slam final and established themselves firmly in the top 10. Del Potro was still very young when he won his slam and made a very visible progression into the top ten in the year leading up to that.

My point wasn't that Del Potro or Berdych are the most obvious dopers (they aren't) but that they are not above suspicion. If so many players are indeed doping, do you really think non doped athletes could be competitive with them? Del Potro's fitness isn't amazing but maybe it would be much worse without PEDs. I remember earlier in his career it was absolutely terrible, now he can go 5 sets with Ferrer and Federer on clay!

[Mustard]

Originally Posted by Speranza

We don't know. You're right, plea bargaining corrupts the process.

But another 'fact', as you say, is that he was doping and is publicly admitting it.

Whether treated as guilty or not, as you say again, he was doping.

Mustard, you're admired by many here, including myself, but to quote someone else in another thread, you're splitting a hair into four here etc. You're trying to change the goal posts now that he's admitted it himself, to a goal regarding corruption and plea bargaining. Please, for your good name. Stop

How am I changing the goalposts? It was always my point that Armstrong never tested positive according to the rules of cycling, that he refused all of the USADA's plea bargains up to the point when Armstrong said that he was "finished with this nonsense", and that the USADA threw the whole book at Armstrong for that reason. It's about the corruption of the system. Armstrong admitting doping to Oprah doesn't change all of this, that plea bargains rule. Even now, we don't know for sure if Armstrong's confession is genuine or a plea bargain to cut his losses.

All these people who are ostracising and demonising Armstrong, what have they to say about the USADA trying to plea bargain Armstrong in the past so that he could keep his first 5 Tour de France titles?

[nikdom]

Here is DRII poo-poohing a pro player's comments on doping by questioning his motives...

Originally Posted by DRII

Please...

Rochus basically includes every player taller than he and his brother in his conspiracies (which is nearly everyone including WTA players).

He also heavily insinuates Nole, but I see you ignored that...

And here is DRII in the Marion Bartoli thread, lecturing me how the fit WTA players aren't simply using protein shakes, when I said " (Fit) Athletes do supplement. It's called a protein shake..." (speaking about Bartoli's seemingly bad nutrition)

Originally Posted by DRII

Could be...

but most women cannot gain muscle like Serena, perhaps Stosur, without supplementation. That is a genetic anomaly much more so than women having more body fat in general.

Originally Posted by DRII

Your naiveté is staggering. You should know the supplementation I'm talking about is not a protein shake!

...

The hypocrisy of Nadal fans is staggering

[tudwell]

Originally Posted by President

My point wasn't that Del Potro or Berdych are the most obvious dopers (they aren't) but that they are not above suspicion. If so many players are indeed doping, do you really think non doped athletes could be competitive with them? Del Potro's fitness isn't amazing but maybe it would be much worse without PEDs. I remember earlier in his career it was absolutely terrible, now he can go 5 sets with Ferrer and Federer on clay!

Well, I can agree with all that.