3 parts of learning/teaching tennis

[tennisfan69]

Originally Posted by TCF

Wow, I could have wrote this post. My daughter is the same way. Been a natural athlete even as a toddler. Took me a while to figure out my technically obsessed focus was just getting in her way.

the tendency to see the fully developed pro( but pros are developing untill they retire.. that is why they are there ), in the very young physically underdeveloped body of a 6,7,8,9,10 year old is the biggest mistake one can make. kids tend to do certain things because physically they cannot do otherwise for lack of strength, height, perception etc. forcing them to do those techniques is detrimental to long term progress and also kills their inner fire to experiment their own way of improving things. tell you they figure out a lot of stuff themselves if you only let them figure out. Also certain techniques are to be taught only after their body parts have grown/matured.. like kick serve you need a strong back..

OP parts 1 and 3 goes hand in hand i guess. but 2 should be gradually introduced as age progresses.

[5263]

--a pro in the Australian Open now is thinking about feel on every shot--

Sampras and Agassi, among others talked a lot about how feel was their big
objective.

[sureshs]

Yeah, but you cannot teach that. It comes indirectly through hitting a lot of balls with proper technique. Mike Agassi made him hit millions of balls till Andre was sick of it.

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Yeah, but you cannot teach that.

I don't think you know that, and can only say what your experience has been.
Maybe that is because of your choices of learning approaches?

My experience is you can facilitate the learning feel process.

[LuckyR]

Coaching Mastery is absolutely correct of course, that there is a set of physical fundamentals of optimal tennis stroke mechanics. No serious person will argue this. But I don't think that the OP necessarily disputes this fact.

The OP seems to be saying that different players will arrive at these fundamentals through different paths. The two most obvious would be to systematically deal with each detail and build them up to the final package and the other is to look at the final package and "figure out" the details after the fact.

Either can work, given the right pupil. I (and I believe Coaching Mastery has admitted in previous threads, that he too is an example) learned tennis by close observation of optimal play and mimicking it, without the input of instruction on every detail of what I was observing.

[sureshs]

^^^ Agree with that.

PS: that = 5263 post above

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by LuckyR

Coaching Mastery is absolutely correct of course, that there is a set of physical fundamentals of optimal tennis stroke mechanics. No serious person will argue this. But I don't think that the OP necessarily disputes this fact.

The OP seems to be saying that different players will arrive at these fundamentals through different paths. The two most obvious would be to systematically deal with each detail and build them up to the final package and the other is to look at the final package and "figure out" the details after the fact.

Either can work, given the right pupil. I (and I believe Coaching Mastery has admitted in previous threads, that he too is an example) learned tennis by close observation of optimal play and mimicking it, without the input of instruction on every detail of what I was observing.

OP's claim is that "natural" method is basically the same as "Wegner" method.

Every coach teaches feel and intuition, along with the bread and butter of fundamentals. I have heard coaches cry: can you feel the grazing on the second serve? Do you hear a swish?

Incorporating feel and natural movement is done by everyone. To say that is basically attributable to one person is completely wrong. That is why I said before that OP should find out which pros actually came out coached by method 1.

[5263]

Originally Posted by sureshs

OP's claim is that "natural" method is basically the same as "Wegner" method.

I took it more as he was using the Wegner method as an example, but not
exclusive. He could have just as easily pointed to your feeltennis site or others. Not
saying they are the same, but each go after a natural feel approach.
Players have to figure out what they want.

[ClairHarmony]

Originally Posted by sureshs

There is no "natural" way of learning. Can you name one pro playing today who followed the natural way of learning?

Right from holding the racket (the correct grip for different strokes), tennis needs to be learnt through its details. Ask someone who doesn't play tennis to show you how the pros serve. They will never use the continental grip and bring the racket edgeways.

Putting the outside foot first, being sideways on the serve, leading with the edge, using the correct grip, using topspin rather than hitting up with open face, split-stepping - everything is taught to most people or they learn on their own indirectly, but using the material other people have learnt from. Seldom does anyone come up with any of this on his/her own "naturally."

The correct way of learning tennis which is followed by all proven pros and juniors and college players is to learn the technical fundamentals correctly. Then they can improvise and innovate on their own, and sometimes those become the material of the next "textbooks."

High-speed video helps to observe the strokes in slow motion and facilitates learning, removing myths which may have been floating around. Even plain old Tennis Channel is good.

For you.... No one taught me to hit a one-handed backhand, then poof...shocked everyone out of nowhere...one day just feeling it...iz like that for some. Never read a book in my life, practically...yet no need to invent "tricks...," purely guided by whatever "feel." One million times, like LIGHT and GUTTER, know your type. Just like the way you go, if it works for you. Fine, logical, cioncrete, working your way up to the mountain top. If it works for you, that's great!. Analytical types, see it as this way, but there are those for whom too much this and that, this and that, this and that, just *destroys* you, can literally. You'll always be kickin' and screamin' inside if someon makes you think/ feel, whatever say different from how you really wanna process.... Worse advice I ever received? Act, be more normal, act, be more normal, just to get in. DON'T maximize MY potential, conform to the "eastablished," "right" way...when every leap in me, is from/through resist. It's like thos who tell Dwight Howard to knock off his smile, can't stand people like that, something is wrong with people like that...oh, yeah, sure and watch Ben Henderson whoop that tail, bcs. he LOVES himself.

Be people want to hear it different, Venus delightfully squals..."Ice-crreamm!" cone on how she remebers, that foregone cue, on how to tip that ball up to surf on serve immaculate. Just is what it is. Give it to, how *satisfies.* If you're not satisifed, you won't even bother unless shotgun taped to forehead. High-speed analysis into oblivion...fine. But that's because it's within your OWN natural impulse to do so. Maximize what makes YOU tick, and wala...endless video analysis might be well-serve, then go hit, and "work" it out. Or opposite, for me, it's in my emotions, more so. If my emotions in check, the rest will move from dangle to in-tow. We all access, evidents of shared humanity in us all, but what you prioritize, what you want to? What you give favor to? Dan just find your right way, it's not all or why way. You may think high-slow analysis is very natural progression, think many adults is unnatural, stupiz to think that way natural...but what point. I trust that if u was on life's death kneel, u'd want to go out thinking your way was everyone's best...and that's only natural. Hey, how 'bout that yummy chicken salad? Only one way to try and make it sound, feel more yummy, appealing, appetizing...or, get more buff over time? Which is it? It don't matter. But more important to some, if you can't keep that impulse-instinct alive...the deligh in the real Hawaain Irish Korean American Ken is out...kinda feeling. U know? What'z the point, if the debate keeps your motor likc ticking, how much u learn? MUCH. Why? Bcs. you naturally seek more knowledge, you still around for more, improving...the wheel is still moving, whether by feel, rewind, or whatever...'cause I don't care nothin' bout tennis lately that I give a care...then, what's the point? Oink-oink...but maybe I should. When it was fun, if it's not fun to derive to arrive, or arrive to derive for others. Don't matter, we're just occupying time. Whatever engages, and keeps you along for the ride. Best chance, or perish in smoke of naivette'. And yet, still I can sense there has been a remarkable progression in you, for you have grown. Where others don't see it, I see it in droves. Usually our points and directives and personalities remain the same, the boundaries in our reframe merely grows slightly more tolerant, appreciative. Whatever works for you, is good, continue, disseminate, not exterminate. Everything is of potential use. it only takes a needle in a hy stack, Too much anlaysis, and you can miss the moment. Too little, and not see. It's not a matter of betterer, but how you want to hear it. Anaylsis is in the soul of some, fleeting flirt temptations in the eyes of another, whatever, ghetto, it iz, what is, make your fish mignon tonight. Havn't life or death time for, time to calamitiously get back on track, peace out preserve soul's welfare....oh, look, nothing, love thy OscarYandellyam...and in other knews, if Zelena didn't have a zit, she'd be pretty, whatever works for you on a steady diet of iced tea. If your hear'ts no in the game to analyze, it's just not. Motivation. Humans are smarter than you might think. Give them enough credit for, and they begin to seek, in a way that feels "natural" to. Before Agassi learned to think too much, he learned to kill...but then, he had to learn how to stop and held breathless for awhile. Without calamity, no sense of broken worthiness... Improve, without declare? But why? Tha'ts crazzy, fiendish, and stupiz, sayz Austin Powers. I used to think Elizabeth Hurley was most beuatiful eva, for a spell, but *clearly* I was wrong. She's still a salt lamp though, dan cutey! And, Leah Remini too! Only slightly less so. The really important things in life. Whatever makes you want to play tennis more. Just remember, how lucky you iz to still be able to *play.* Without that zest, it'd merely be obligation, a gremlin kicking and screaming inside ton o' dynohhhhmite. It only takes one to turn a tired new leaf, in here. If u didn't know studs w. guns (Jan Michael Gambill) could play two-handed, bubblegum savanta,s would probalby lthink , no way izx not possizble, I'll kick him in da rear, for riding htat wave almost to the top, iszn't ther a group called the Zitfree boys with your name on it? Dud, can't do that, don't do that, I thought you had to have the soul of Monica Seles to get away with like that. And, in other news, saw the ticky competitiveness mannerisms of John Mac vs. Chang theo other day, but they looked the same, even if chang, being Asian and all, be the better dancer. All those years of training ballet on the great ball, only in his imagination, have really paid off...phsyio people have a name for training that blaance thingermuachig of brain for balance with eyes closed, but no so what iz, 'm not a sloppy-then-razor refermagnum,idon't knowhow tohink anymore,izincredbile how tireing iz totink, lik that. U lucky, go incredo just hit yeay!.

[President]

^the dangers of big pharma

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by ClairHarmony

For you.... No one taught me to hit a one-handed backhand, then poof...shocked everyone out of nowhere...one day just feeling it...iz like that for some. Never read a book in my life, practically...yet no need to invent "tricks...," purely guided by whatever "feel."

I am sure you had never seen a 1 handed BH being hit before, and never watch a 1 hander pro on TV, and never even practiced it before. You were not using an Eastern or an extreme Eastern before.

And all of a sudden you were hitting it. Right.

I too learnt it on my own. It came through a series of "Ah ah"s as thinks clicked. That is my feel, and only I can feel it. I don't need any philosophical approach to that. And yes, I started by observation and reading books and watching and asking questions.

[jakeytennis]

Originally Posted by sureshs

There is no "natural" way of learning. Can you name one pro playing today who followed the natural way of learning?

Right from holding the racket (the correct grip for different strokes), tennis needs to be learnt through its details. Ask someone who doesn't play tennis to show you how the pros serve. They will never use the continental grip and bring the racket edgeways.

Putting the outside foot first, being sideways on the serve, leading with the edge, using the correct grip, using topspin rather than hitting up with open face, split-stepping - everything is taught to most people or they learn on their own indirectly, but using the material other people have learnt from. Seldom does anyone come up with any of this on his/her own "naturally."

The correct way of learning tennis which is followed by all proven pros and juniors and college players is to learn the technical fundamentals correctly. Then they can improvise and innovate on their own, and sometimes those become the material of the next "textbooks."

High-speed video helps to observe the strokes in slow motion and facilitates learning, removing myths which may have been floating around. Even plain old Tennis Channel is good.

you really think telling a beginner 100 different instructions is a good teaching method. that is way to complicated to learn quickly

by natural way, i mean teaching the most basic fundamentals of tennis, which is watching the ball, tracking the ball, and running to the ball naturally.


if you want to see how simple tennis can be taught, watch these videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDMTf2zDNkw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzR8x5MgvDw

i've seen so many players with good mechanics/technique that look like fools on a tennis court because they dont watch the ball well or track the ball well

[arche3]

Originally Posted by sureshs

I am sure you had never seen a 1 handed BH being hit before, and never watch a 1 hander pro on TV, and never even practiced it before. You were not using an Eastern or an extreme Eastern before.

And all of a sudden you were hitting it. Right.

I too learnt it on my own. It came through a series of "Ah ah"s as thinks clicked. That is my feel, and only I can feel it. I don't need any philosophical approach to that. And yes, I started by observation and reading books and watching and asking questions.

If you had a coach on court with you the technique comes much faster.

[Ash_Smith]

Originally Posted by jakeytennis

you really think telling a beginner 100 different instructions is a good teaching method. that is way to complicated to learn quickly

umm, I don't think anybody ever suggested that this is a good idea!

[5263]

Originally Posted by jakeytennis

by natural way, i mean teaching the most basic fundamentals of tennis, which is watching the ball, tracking the ball, and running to the ball naturally.

Seems some posters think natural means inborn like a bird knowing how to
build a nest or something?

[jakeytennis]

im not saying the traditional "100 different instructions" teaching method is bad. it's good for making developed players better.
im just saying it shouldnt be taught before "the natural way"


people dont realize hitting a ball successfully REQUIRES the ball to hit the strings.

and players that are taught to watch the ball, track the ball, and run to the ball well are so consistent because they almost always make good contact with the ball

[arche3]

Originally Posted by 5263

Seems some posters think natural means inborn like a bird knowing how to
build a nest or something?

I'm against using high speed video for players to learn when they are beginners. I think beginners need a good real live coach and after they can hit a decent fh bh serve etc. Then start breaking down the small details of pro strokes analysing video. A beginner needs less stuff in their head. But you need a good coach that shows the player the proper feel of the strokes. The body needs muscle memory and the brain just gets in the way when you have no idea what its supposed to feel like.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by jakeytennis

you really think telling a beginner 100 different instructions is a good teaching method. that is way to complicated to learn quickly

by natural way, i mean teaching the most basic fundamentals of tennis, which is watching the ball, tracking the ball, and running to the ball naturally.


if you want to see how simple tennis can be taught, watch these videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDMTf2zDNkw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzR8x5MgvDw

i've seen so many players with good mechanics/technique that look like fools on a tennis court because they dont watch the ball well or track the ball well

No one does the things you suggest. Have you ever watched a coach teach a beginner? He doesn't give 100 instructions, nor does he say run to the ball naturally. He gives a couple of guided instructions and make them hit the ball.

And you have seen many players with good technique and mechanics who don't watch the ball? Then how do you know they have good mechanics? And more fundamentally, how did they acquire the good mechanics without watching and tracking the ball? By just hitting into empty space?

[5263]

Originally Posted by arche3

I'm against using high speed video for players to learn when they are beginners. I think beginners need a good real live coach and after they can hit a decent fh bh serve etc. Then start breaking down the small details of pro strokes analysing video. A beginner needs less stuff in their head. But you need a good coach that shows the player the proper feel of the strokes. The body needs muscle memory and the brain just gets in the way when you have no idea what its supposed to feel like.

Some good pts.
You know I'm referring to those who seem to thing learning a "natural way"
means some kind of inborn knowledge or something.

[arche3]

Originally Posted by 5263

Some good pts.
You know I'm referring to those who seem to thing learning a "natural way"
means some kind of inborn knowledge or something.

Yeah. Tennis is freakin hard. You cant just go on court and get good. Examples at every tennis club in the country. Adults played 40 years and still do not know how to serve.