Who is the female Tennis GOAT?

[TMF]

Let's not forget the experts/historians from The Tennis Channel have determined the top list after an extensive analysis.

1 Steffi Graf*
2 Martina Navratilova*
3 Margaret Court*
4 Chris Evert*
5 Billy Jean King*
6 Serena Williams*
7 Monica Seles*
8 Venus Williams*
9 Suzanne Lenglen*
10 Justine Henin*

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by TMF

Let's not forget the experts/historians from The Tennis Channel

Like you have already been told hundreds of times, Tennis Channel even had Roy Emerson 11 spots over Pancho Gonzales. End of.

Even if one was to take it seriously though that list came out before Serenas dominant 2012 at age 31. I am 110% sure a list done now, even by those same people, would see her placed higher, probably 3rd or 4th now instead of 6th.

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by DropShotArtist

Prime Seles/Graf wouldn't even be facing prime Serena as she'd be losing to the likes of Razzano in early rounds,

and if she didnt Graf would just call her good friend Gunther to stab her. Serena is tougher than Monica though, and would be back on court playing slam winning tennis in less than 3 months, and Graf would be like oh crap what do I do now, my usual tactics didnt work. Might give Tonya Harding and pals a call next.

[Vanhool]

Originally Posted by TMF

By consensus, Federer and Graf is the goat. Serena is a tier II great.

consensus means everyone agrees. clearly that's not the case for either, or these endless discussions would not exist. not sure if you're trolling or just don't speak english as a first language

[Prisoner of Birth]

Originally Posted by Vanhool

consensus means everyone agrees. clearly that's not the case for either, or these endless discussions would not exist. not sure if you're trolling or just don't speak english as a first language

Consensus = Majority of opinion

Source : http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/consensus

[Vanhool]

consensus = 1 a: general agreement : unaniminity* b: the judgement arrived at by most of those concerned. 2: group solidarity in sentiment and belief

*unaniminity = the quality or state of being unanimous**

**unanimous = 1 : being of one mind : agreeing 2 : formed with or indicating unaniminity : having the agreement and consent of all

source: Merriam-Webster. a real dictionary

Asterisks are my drilling down of definitions. Anyway, if you are just trolling, then troll on! I already regret stepping into this....

[Prisoner of Birth]

Originally Posted by Vanhool

consensus = 1 a: general agreement : unaniminity* b: the judgement arrived at by most of those concerned. 2: group solidarity in sentiment and belief

*unaniminity = the quality or state of being unanimous**

**unanimous = 1 : being of one mind : agreeing 2 : formed with or indicating unaniminity : having the agreement and consent of all

source: Merriam-Webster. a real dictionary

Asterisks are my drilling down of definitions. Anyway, if you are just trolling, then troll on! I already regret stepping into this....

Whoa! I post a definition and a link and I'm trolling? Get over yourself, mate.

[Vanhool]

Originally Posted by Prisoner of Birth

Whoa! I post a definition and a link and I'm trolling? Get over yourself, mate.

sorry! I didn't look closely, I thought you were the person I responded to in my first post!

[pvaudio]

Originally Posted by LittleTinGoddess

Who cares? Watching women's sports is like watching the Special Olympics.

Roger Federer never said what is in your signature. That's from a 2001 Lance Armstrong Nike commercial.

[SystemicAnomaly]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

... Even if one was to take it seriously though that list came out before Serenas dominant 2012 at age 31. I am 110% sure a list done now, even by those same people, would see her placed higher, probably 3rd or 4th now instead of 6th.

That list come out in the Spring of 2012. I provided a link on page 2 of this thread. If it come out at the end of the year, she may have moved up to 5th place, not 3rd.

[TMF]

Historian/writer Steve Flink is well respected for his knowledge. Here is his top list.

1 Steffi
2 Martina
3 Chris
4 Hellen
5 Margaret
6 Serena
7 Suzanne
8 Maureen
9 Billie
10 Monica

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by TMF

Historian/writer Steve Flink is well respected for his knowledge. Here is his top list.

1 Steffi
2 Martina
3 Chris
4 Hellen
5 Margaret
6 Serena
7 Suzanne
8 Maureen
9 Billie
10 Monica

That list was made a year ago, and a year ago would have been right (and is far better than the stupid Tennis Channel one which had King 5th amongst women). However Serena has already advanced her position with the best year by a 31 year old women ever, and will likely only continue to do so. I am pretty sure if he he remade the list today she would already be up to 3rd or 4th.

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

That list come out in the Spring of 2012. I provided a link on page 2 of this thread. If it come out at the end of the year, she may have moved up to 5th place, not 3rd.

I know and when I referred to Serenas dominant 2012 that all came after Spring which she won Wimbledon, U.S Open, Olympics, and WTA Championships, and included probably the most devastating display of tennis ever by a women at the Olympics, and saw her running away with all Player of Year honors, and having the best year ever by a 31 year old (despite the slowish start). It is quite likely that alone would have advanced her several spots on any list.

[SystemicAnomaly]

^ Dream on. Yes, while Serena did have a stellar year, she still has a lot of catching up to do. She is still way behind Chris Evert & Margaret Court. Most of us, including several list referenced, are considering total (career) achievements, not peak level of play. As I detailed in post #35, even with Serena's stellar 2012 year, there is still a vast gulf between the achievements of Chris and Serena. Ditto for Margaret vs Serena.

Perhaps Serena has overtaken BJK. Perhaps not. Serena has 15 singles slam titles while Billie Jean has 12. OTOH, BJK has a total of 129 singles titles while Serena pales in comparison with 47. If we take a look at total number of grand slam titles, BJK has 41 compared to 30 for Serena.

Note that the WTA Tour records link I provided in post #35 (and below) does not show all the accomplishments of Margaret Court and BJK since most of their career accomplishments pre-dated the WTA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTA_Tour_records

[Phoenix1983]

It's Steffi. 22 slams including winning all 4 at least 4 times each, winning the CYGS + Olympic Gold in 1988, ranking No 1 for 7 years and almost 400 wks, winning 100 tournaments, slams 12 years apart, etc.

There are 3 main arguments forwarded against her but I don't put credence in any of them:

1). Navratilova was greater because she excelled in doubles as well.
- It's weird how this is pretty much the only time when doubles are invoked to raise someone's status. When we are talking about the men's GOAT list, no-one ever discusses the doubles achievements of Fed, Laver, Sampras, Borg etc. No-one ever promotes Court as female GOAT because she has won GS titles in total (singles,doubles,mixed doubles) than anyone else. No-one ever puts the great doubles players like the Woodies, the Bryans near the top of GOAT lists.
Yet Navratilova fans always like to place her ahead of Graf because she was also good at doubles. Frankly it's irrelevant in judging someone's status in an individual sport.

2). The stabbing of Seles inflates Graf's achievements.
- We have to go on what actually happened, rather than what people think 'would have' happened in hypothetical scenarios. It's possible that Maureen Connolly would have won every slam for 10 years if she hadn't been injured in a horse riding accident - but we can't promote her to GOAT because of this. Furthermore Graf was undergoing personal problems in the early 90s (father's tax issues etc.) and still did not have a bad h2h record against Seles. There's no way we can say for sure that Seles would have continued to dominate. Maybe Steffi loses a few slams but that would be compensated by the fact that those she won, she would have won them against Seles, a stronger competitor than what she actually faced.

3). Serena would beat Steffi (and every other great) at peak
- GOAT should be judged on accomplishments, not peak play. Serena is getting reasonably close, but still trails Steffi and Martina at this stage.

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

^ Dream on. Yes, while Serena did have a stellar year, she still has a lot of catching up to do. She is still way behind Chris Evert & Margaret Court. Most of us, including several list referenced, are considering total (career) achievements, not peak level of play. As I detailed in post #35, even with Serena's stellar 2012 year, there is still a vast gulf between the achievements of Chris and Serena. Ditto for Margaret vs Serena.

Perhaps Serena has overtaken BJK. Perhaps not. Serena has 15 singles slam titles while Billie Jean has 12. OTOH, BJK has a total of 129 singles titles while Serena pales in comparison with 47. If we take a look at total number of grand slam titles, BJK has 41 compared to 30 for Serena.

Note that the WTA Tour records link I provided in post #35 (and below) does not show all the accomplishments of Margaret Court and BJK since most of their career accomplishments pre-dated the WTA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTA_Tour_records

if it was all about acheivements Court would the GOAT light years ahead of Graf who has even achieved far less in singles, that is without even considering Courts amazing doubles career vs Graf and her non existant one. So your points are pointless, as it is obviously not all about stats even to people like you who milk Graf as the supposed GOAT over past players with superior stats, especialy for players who played before womens tennis even had a remote degree of competitiveness. I am quite sure after what Serena did the last 8 months at age 31 any new all time ranking list would have her in the top 3 or 4, and will only continue to rise from there before any new list comes out again. BTW no list other than the stupid Tennis Channel one would EVER have King even close to top 5 or ahead of any of Serena, Wills, Lenglen, or probably even Connolly. Any credible list would have her at the very bottom of the top 10 between 8th to 10th.

[Phoenix1983]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Hardly only in this place. Nobody talks Evert as a GOAT candidate even these days. She is never even brought up. Even she herself never dares to suggest herself as the possible female tennis GOAT, referencing at different times Navratilova, Graf, and and now Serena instead. McEnroe, Carillo, King, Shriver, Collins, Drysdale, Evert herself, have all recently began to suggest Serena might be the best of all time. For once on Planet **** Warehouse a poll is somewhat close to reality. In the real World the GOAT race is clearly down to Graf vs Serena at this point, with Navratilova an outside choice as well. The rest (Court, Evert, etc..) are major all time greats, but as far as who is THE female GOAT they dont even figure in anymore, just like they dont in this poll either apparently.

Look dude. Serena is not yet GOAT and those who have said she is are being premature.

[TMF]

Originally Posted by Phoenix1983

It's Steffi. 22 slams including winning all 4 at least 4 times each, winning the CYGS + Olympic Gold in 1988, ranking No 1 for 7 years and almost 400 wks, winning 100 tournaments, slams 12 years apart, etc.

There are 3 main arguments forwarded against her but I don't put credence in any of them:

1). Navratilova was greater because she excelled in doubles as well.
- It's weird how this is pretty much the only time when doubles are invoked to raise someone's status. When we are talking about the men's GOAT list, no-one ever discusses the doubles achievements of Fed, Laver, Sampras, Borg etc. No-one ever promotes Court as female GOAT because she has won GS titles in total (singles,doubles,mixed doubles) than anyone else. No-one ever puts the great doubles players like the Woodies, the Bryans near the top of GOAT lists.
Yet Navratilova fans always like to place her ahead of Graf because she was also good at doubles. Frankly it's irrelevant in judging someone's status in an individual sport.

2). The stabbing of Seles inflates Graf's achievements.
- We have to go on what actually happened, rather than what people think 'would have' happened in hypothetical scenarios. It's possible that Maureen Connolly would have won every slam for 10 years if she hadn't been injured in a horse riding accident - but we can't promote her to GOAT because of this. Furthermore Graf was undergoing personal problems in the early 90s (father's tax issues etc.) and still did not have a bad h2h record against Seles. There's no way we can say for sure that Seles would have continued to dominate. Maybe Steffi loses a few slams but that would be compensated by the fact that those she won, she would have won them against Seles, a stronger competitor than what she actually faced.

3). Serena would beat Steffi (and every other great) at peak
- GOAT should be judged on accomplishments, not peak play. Serena is getting reasonably close, but still trails Steffi and Martina at this stage.

I agree with the first 2 arguments above, but the 3rd argument is subjective. You can't measure peak play, let alone compare who was playing at the highest level, and who would beat who when playing their best. However I agree that goat status isn't about peak play, but career achievements.



Here is what Steve Flink said about Serena in his book:

"I do think that Serena's performance at the Olympics was the highest technical level we've ever seen from her," he said. "But some of the past greats were champions of a higher order than anyone she's playing right now. I think Steffi Graf, especially, would have done very well against her, with the athleticism, the speed, and a sliced backhand I think would give Serena problems.

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by Phoenix1983

Look dude. Serena is not yet GOAT and those who have said she is are being premature.

because you say so?

[Phoenix1983]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Stop comparing players retiring to a stabbing. Players choose to retire, it is meaningless, part of the game. Just like injuries are part of the game, otherwise I could mention Serena would have 30 slams by now if she werent a walking hospital but havent. Stabbing is not part of the game, it is an unprecedented act in the sport, a criminal act that interfered with the immediate course of history. [/url]

WWII interfered with the course of history, maybe Don Budge would have won every tournament that was played during those six years and be known today as male GOAT.

Please stop trying to put the Seles stabbing in a different category to other events. Its effect on tennis history is a "would have" hypothetical just like all the rest.