Who is the female Tennis GOAT?

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by ctjpm

'Serena is tougher than Monica though' = subjective. Serena was never in Monica's position. Monica's mental toughness was legendary and it floored her.

Singles - Graf.
Combined/doubles - Navratilova.
There's no such thing as the greatest of course but it beats writing an essay. Special mention to the two Mo's who couldn't continue to rack up titles.

seles wasn't in hers either....

[TMF]

Originally Posted by TERRASTAR18

the same bigots who call her a man and use steroids? yeah bias much?!

Who said Serena is a man uses steroids ??
Quote who said it and don't generalize all fans who don't pick Serena as a goat.

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

^^^



Yes, I've got to agree with this. I think that we all agree that Serena is an amazing talent and possibly has the best level of play overall, but she has not YET racked up the achievements to put her 2nd or even 3rd in the poll.

(PS: NadalAgassi, why don't you remind us one more time that Serena is 31? As if this makes your arguments more compelling or more credible. Yes, it is admirable that she is doing very well at 31 but it still does not magically put her ahead of players with considerably more achievements).

but it's funny how you want to look at achievements in a vacum in a conversation about greatness but want to ignore the conditions said achievements occured in. by your logic climbing mount everest is no big deal if you climb a bunch of small ones....

[NadalAgassi]

I love how much the haters are burned Serena is 2nd on this poll, even in what is clearly a Serena hating forum. Truth is a poll done in the real World with thousands of voters, not only would Serena be atleast 2nd, she would be alot closer to Graf than she is here.

Also to the Graftards who keep pumping achievements this and achievements that, and numbers this, well if you are dead set on that then fine, dump Serena down to 5th or 6th all time as you so desperately want to, but now also give Margaret Court her rightful due and admit Graf is unworthy of her GOAT position, and it should be Court instead. After all every single one of Court's stats is better than Graf, more singles slams, more singles tournaments, would have more time at #1 if the computer rankings had been around then as she was by far the Worlds best player for more than 8 years of her career, an amazing doubles career vs the non existent doubles career of Graf. She also didnt need her biggest kryptonite stabbed to achieve any of that either, she did every bit of it on her own. So if you want to put down Serena by making it nothing more than a numbers game, then stop with this Graf GOAT nonsense as well and admit Court >>>> Graf which by a numbers and nothing else standpoint she clearly is. In the case of numbers and nothing else Navratilova with her doubles career and 167 tournament titles should also be higher than Graf, and Evert probably has a more complete singles career than Graf in many ways too. Of course Court's numbers are qualified with a bunch of excuses and it is suddenly not all about numbers when it is Graf vs Court, yet when it is Graf vs Serena it is. What a joke.

[ctjpm]

Originally Posted by TERRASTAR18

seles wasn't in hers either....

I stated she was where exactly?
Fail to see the connection - pulmonary embolism, madman attacks? Referring to the Williams stalker?

[Phoenix1983]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

I love how much the haters are burned Serena is 2nd on this poll, even in what is clearly a Serena hating forum.

Well, you're clearly in love with Serena, so we can't take what you say on the subject seriously.

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Truth is a poll done in the real World with thousands of voters, not only would Serena be atleast 2nd, she would be alot closer to Graf than she is here.

I don't think that's true, I think Graf and Navratilova would clearly be the top 2 if a poll were done across all age groups. It's generally the younger generation who think Serena is GOAT.

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

Also to the Graftards who keep pumping achievements this and achievements that, and numbers this, well if you are dead set on that then fine, dump Serena down to 5th or 6th all time as you so desperately want to,

I have Serena at 4th.

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

but now also give Margaret Court her rightful due and admit Graf is unworthy of her GOAT position, and it should be Court instead. After all every single one of Court's stats is better than Graf, more singles slams, more singles tournaments, would have more time at #1 if the computer rankings had been around then as she was by far the Worlds best player for more than 8 years of her career, an amazing doubles career vs the non existent doubles career of Graf.

Court won 11 out of 24 slams at the pre-Open Era AO. Graf won all 4 majors at least 4 times each in the Open Era. Graf is clearly greater than Court. I've already explained why doubles are irrelevant for the GOAT debate.

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

She also didnt need her biggest kryptonite stabbed to achieve any of that either, she did every bit of it on her own.

Why do you persist on making the Seles stabbing a unique event; as I've explained previously, it's just another hypothetical "what would have" happened situation. I see in one of your previous posts you try to claim that Steffi was actually responsible for the stabbing (i.e. had a connection with the person who committed the attack). Tinfoil hat nonsense.

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

So if you want to put down Serena by making it nothing more than a numbers game, then stop with this Graf GOAT nonsense as well and admit Court >>>> Graf which by a numbers and nothing else standpoint she clearly is. In the case of numbers and nothing else Navratilova with her doubles career and 167 tournament titles should also be higher than Graf, and Evert probably has a more complete singles career than Graf in many ways too. Of course Court's numbers are qualified with a bunch of excuses and it is suddenly not all about numbers when it is Graf vs Court, yet when it is Graf vs Serena it is. What a joke.

If you want to put down Graf because of the Seles stabbing, you have to take into account all hypothetical "what ifs" in tennis history.

Therefore you have to admit that Maureen Connolly is GOAT, because she would have won every slam competed for the rest of the 1950s if she hadn't been injured.

[kiki]

Originally Posted by Phoenix1983

Well, you're clearly in love with Serena, so we can't take what you say on the subject seriously.



I don't think that's true, I think Graf and Navratilova would clearly be the top 2 if a poll were done across all age groups. It's generally the younger generation who think Serena is GOAT.



I have Serena at 4th.




Court won 11 out of 24 slams at the pre-Open Era AO. Graf won all 4 majors at least 4 times each in the Open Era. Graf is clearly greater than Court. I've already explained why doubles are irrelevant for the GOAT debate.



Why do you persist on making the Seles stabbing a unique event; as I've explained previously, it's just another hypothetical "what would have" happened situation. I see in one of your previous posts you try to claim that Steffi was actually responsible for the stabbing (i.e. had a connection with the person who committed the attack). Tinfoil hat nonsense.




If you want to put down Graf because of the Seles stabbing, you have to take into account all hypothetical "what ifs" in tennis history.

Therefore you have to admit that Maureen Connolly is GOAT, because she would have won every slam competed for the rest of the 1950s if she hadn't been injured.

For Hoad and Connolly amount of slam titles shouldn´t be applied, since both were GOAT candidates alone on their peak play.

[NadalAgassi]

The Pre Open Era crap in the womens game is a bunch of nonsense. Anyone who knows squat all about tennis knows the womens game was never like the mens game in that sense. The best players played amateur and all the slams atleast until their 30s. Court was playing the best players in the World in winning all her slams (apart from a few of the Australians when some didnt show, but that is their problem). What this is, is clearly a qualification to make Graf's clearly inferior achievements and numbers better than Court, numbers even with the HUGE gain to her own numbers from the Seles stabbing and playing virtually no doubles she still couldnt reach, with the excuse "oh Graf had tougher competition" (which compared to Court she didnt anyway, lol). Well in that case one can say Serena is better than Graf since most of her career she also had tougher competition, and in fact even in todays weak WTA the overall depth of the top 50 far eclipses the Graf era, and since she flat out would kick Graf's *** if they played head to head, along with the fact she is excelling into her 30s while Graf at 27 could no longer keep up.

Take your choice. All about numbers then Court is the GOAT, not Graf, and it isnt even close. Bring all this subjectivity and qualifying Court's achievements into it, then people are free to say Serena is better than Graf despite having not reached her numbers.

Also to the person who said the stabbing was not a unique event, get a clue. How many times has an athlete been nearly stabbed to death by a crazy fan of their archrival on the field during play, especialy in an individual sport like tennis. Yeah I thought so.

[cknobman]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

The Pre Open Era crap in the womens game is a bunch of nonsense. Anyone who knows squat all about tennis knows the womens game was never like the mens game in that sense. The best players played amateur and all the slams atleast until their 30s. Court was playing the best players in the World in winning all her slams (apart from a few of the Australians when some didnt show, but that is their problem). What this is, is clearly a qualification to make Graf's clearly inferior achievements and numbers better than Court, numbers even with the HUGE gain to her own numbers from the Seles stabbing and playing virtually no doubles she still couldnt reach, with the excuse "oh Graf had tougher competition" (which compared to Court she didnt anyway, lol). Well in that case one can say Serena is better than Graf since most of her career she also had tougher competition, and in fact even in todays weak WTA the overall depth of the top 50 far eclipses the Graf era, and since she flat out would kick Graf's *** if they played head to head, along with the fact she is excelling into her 30s while Graf at 27 could no longer keep up.

Take your choice. All about numbers then Court is the GOAT, not Graf, and it isnt even close. Bring all this subjectivity and qualifying Court's achievements into it, then people are free to say Serena is better than Graf despite having not reached her numbers.

Also to the person who said the stabbing was not a unique event, get a clue. How many times has an athlete been nearly stabbed to death by a crazy fan of their archrival on the field during play, especialy in an individual sport like tennis. Yeah I thought so.

So are all the professionals who voted in The Tennis Channels 100 greatest of all time special morons too??????
Graf was higher than Serena and Court in their estimation as well.
If you had watched it you would also know that they specifically mentioned that Courts position on the list was a direct reflection of the competition she played against (mostly amateurs).

As of now Graf is rightfully higher than Serena in a female GOAT debate. Will it end up that way? If Serena keeps playing a few more years then not likely.

[SystemicAnomaly]

Originally Posted by TERRASTAR18

but it's funny how you want to look at achievements in a vacum in a conversation about greatness but want to ignore the conditions said achievements occured in. by your logic climbing mount everest is no big deal if you climb a bunch of small ones....

Not considering achievements in a vacuum at all. It certainly is not straight forward. However, most of us put stronger emphasis on achievements that other factors. Achievements speak volumes. Other considerations, however, are not ignored. You analogy is flawed.

[SystemicAnomaly]

Margaret Court is certainly one of the all-time greats. Belongs in the top 3 or 4. However the AO in her time was rather weak -- not much more than a glorified local tournament. A lot of the top 20 did not play the AO back then. Eleven of her singles slam wins were at the AO -- just less than half.

It is difficult to compare achievements of pre-Open, pre-WTA greats with Graf, Navratilova and modern players. Back in the day,there were only 2 slam surfaces. Court won 5 of her singles titles on clay. The rest were all on grass. Difficult to make a direct comparison to the modern game for this reason alone.

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Originally Posted by Phoenix1983

It's generally the younger generation who think Serena is GOAT.

THANK YOU for making this great point, as it has been noted about younger generations living in the moment, rather than considering or acknowledging the irrefutable achievements of a time before their own. I have said this is like some child wanting their "toy" to be the "best ever" even when the key requirements to even be in that conversation were never met. That said, i've said Serena cannot be the GOAT as she--like any player who failed to win the historically accepted/celebrated Grand Slam--cannot be the greatest over everyone else. This--obviously--applies to male players as well, and again, i'll note that at the time Graf won the Grand Slam in 1988, the GOAT talk was swirling around her--and many crowned her, but her career (with many more majors yet to win) was young. They did not wait for older Graf to earn more majors victories, but crowned her with many years left in the tank.

That talk and actual crowning of Graf-1988 would never have happened if Graf only mananged to win three majors that year; in fact, Wilander won three that same year, but he was not even close to being considered the GOAT. He--like anyone else not meeting the criteria--will not wear that GOAT crown. So Serena--while easily one of the greatest ever to step on a court in the sport of professional tennis--is not THE greatest above all others.

I have Serena at 4th.

That reads as fair...debatable for some, but fair.

[tennis_pro]

Originally Posted by THUNDERVOLLEY

THANK YOU for making this great point, as it has been noted about younger generations living in the moment, rather than considering or acknowledging the irrefutable achievements of a time before their own. I have said this is like some child wanting their "toy" to be the "best ever" even when the key requirements to even be in that conversation were never met. That said, i've said Serena cannot be the GOAT as she--like any player who failed to win the historically accepted/celebrated Grand Slam--cannot be the greatest over everyone else. This--obviously--applies to male players as well, and again, i'll note that at the time Graf won the Grand Slam in 1988, the GOAT talk was swirling around her--and many crowned her, but her career (with many more majors yet to win) was young. They did not wait for older Graf to earn more majors victories, but crowned her with many years left in the tank.

That talk and actual crowning of Graf-1988 would never have happened if Graf only mananged to win three majors that year; in fact, Wilander won three that same year, but he was not even close to being considered the GOAT. He--like anyone else not meeting the criteria--will not wear that GOAT crown. So Serena--while easily one of the greatest ever to step on a court in the sport of professional tennis--is not THE greatest above all others.

I guess no-one would be considered the GOAT in your eyes if no-one managed to win the Grand Slam

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by TMF

Who said Serena is a man uses steroids ??
Quote who said it and don't generalize all fans who don't pick Serena as a goat.

system anomaly for one in this thread. you have no logic skills do you? it doesn't have to be everyone, you will never find a 100% of everything. it's an example, the same way you you used steve flink as yours.

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

I love how much the haters are burned Serena is 2nd on this poll, even in what is clearly a Serena hating forum. Truth is a poll done in the real World with thousands of voters, not only would Serena be atleast 2nd, she would be alot closer to Graf than she is here.

Also to the Graftards who keep pumping achievements this and achievements that, and numbers this, well if you are dead set on that then fine, dump Serena down to 5th or 6th all time as you so desperately want to, but now also give Margaret Court her rightful due and admit Graf is unworthy of her GOAT position, and it should be Court instead. After all every single one of Court's stats is better than Graf, more singles slams, more singles tournaments, would have more time at #1 if the computer rankings had been around then as she was by far the Worlds best player for more than 8 years of her career, an amazing doubles career vs the non existent doubles career of Graf. She also didnt need her biggest kryptonite stabbed to achieve any of that either, she did every bit of it on her own. So if you want to put down Serena by making it nothing more than a numbers game, then stop with this Graf GOAT nonsense as well and admit Court >>>> Graf which by a numbers and nothing else standpoint she clearly is. In the case of numbers and nothing else Navratilova with her doubles career and 167 tournament titles should also be higher than Graf, and Evert probably has a more complete singles career than Graf in many ways too. Of course Court's numbers are qualified with a bunch of excuses and it is suddenly not all about numbers when it is Graf vs Court, yet when it is Graf vs Serena it is. What a joke.

and with that the thread is officially shutdown.....there is nothing more to add.

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by ctjpm

I stated she was where exactly?
Fail to see the connection - pulmonary embolism, madman attacks? Referring to the Williams stalker?

you were asking about toughness....i made the point that serena' s toghness was shown just as much as seles if not more. both came back from career/life ending injuries and won matches they were losing in.

[DropShotArtist]

Based on achievements, Graf is clearly GOAT. Based on highest level of play, Seles.

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by Phoenix1983

Well, you're clearly in love with Serena, so we can't take what you say on the subject seriously.



I don't think that's true, I think Graf and Navratilova would clearly be the top 2 if a poll were done across all age groups. It's generally the younger generation who think Serena is GOAT.



I have Serena at 4th.




Court won 11 out of 24 slams at the pre-Open Era AO. Graf won all 4 majors at least 4 times each in the Open Era. Graf is clearly greater than Court. I've already explained why doubles are irrelevant for the GOAT debate.



Why do you persist on making the Seles stabbing a unique event; as I've explained previously, it's just another hypothetical "what would have" happened situation. I see in one of your previous posts you try to claim that Steffi was actually responsible for the stabbing (i.e. had a connection with the person who committed the attack). Tinfoil hat nonsense.




If you want to put down Graf because of the Seles stabbing, you have to take into account all hypothetical "what ifs" in tennis history.

Therefore you have to admit that Maureen Connolly is GOAT, because she would have won every slam competed for the rest of the 1950s if she hadn't been injured.

and you are not in love with graf.....all you make are excuses: the seles stabbing is a unique event(tennis players are not supposed to get stabbed, and that is pretty obvious), seles was the best player in the world at the time of the stabbing, beating graf at most of the slams they played.

margaret court played the most pretigious tournaments at the time....it's not her fault they wanted money and didn't want to play australia.

and maureen connolly could win all she wanted but that would bring up the little competition she had.

it's funny posters like yourself want to talk about older posters vs new but you are the one who is afraid to talk about the past.

[NadalAgassi]

If people want to say Court had weak competition in Australia, where she won 11 of her 24 slams, Graf had really weak competition after the Seles stabbing until the end of 1996, which is 10 of her 22 slams. Heck for that matter outside of 90-early 93, and 98-99 Graf had weak competition her whole career, where she won 18 of her 22 slams, late 80s was 30 something Martina and Chris and Sabatini, and post Seles stabbing the whole womens game fell apart until the new generation saved the game in the late 90s. Court faced King, Bueno, Jones, Wade, Goolagong, Richey, and other numerous time slam winners for years at the other 3 slams atleast, and even some of her Australian Opens she beat some of those too. So not only does Court have superior singles achievements to Graf, tons more doubles achievements, but she faced more competition, even considering the Australian Open being weak those days.

The Seles stabbing should be a much bigger asterix than the Australian Open fields of the 60s. I did a breakdown once and estimated Court would have probably won roughly 9 of her 11 Australian Opens even if everyone played. You cant say anyone would have been favored over her on her home court, on her favorite speed of grass, early in the year when she was always fresh and ready to go (her slam tallies at Wimbledon and U.S Open suffered as she sometimes had a baby or took temporary retirement starting mid year). That is a huge contrast to Graf who would not have even been favored to win most slams from 93-95 had Seles not been stabbed, while Court would have been the odds on favorite every year at the Australian she won even if everyone played, probably would have been upset in a few of them, but still the one to beat everytime. So dont even think of mentioning the Australian Open status while dismissing the stabbing as nothing.

Of course when it comes to competition Serena had by far the hardest of all time from 1999-2007 when she won most of her current slams. Even the womens game today which people diss has far more depth than anytime before the late 90s. Anyone in the top 50 almost has potential to beat any great player on their day. That was never the case in the womens game in the past.

[kiki]

Hingis won 4 out of 5 majors im 97
Deserves at least top 13