What can be done to reduce the cheating?

[andfor]

Here's the recurring theme I see coming up over and over. Cheating is the parents fault. That said, offended parents should file letters against the child/participant cheater to get them under the eye of big brother. Does anyone not see the long term problem with this?

Teach your kid how to handle cheating. Teach them they are responsible for what happens on the court. Just like being responsible for their school work, chores and job.

Stop blaming cheating on your kids parents, lack of official, the cheater, etc. Tennis is not fair. Life is not fair. There are dignified ways to go about navigating life's waters. Blaming others is not one of them.

[lala28m]

Originally Posted by andfor

Here's the recurring theme I see coming up over and over. Cheating is the parents fault. That said, offended parents should file letters against the child/participant cheater to get them under the eye of big brother. Does anyone not see the long term problem with this?

Teach your kid how to handle cheating. Teach them they are responsible for what happens on the court. Just like being responsible for their school work, chores and job.

Stop blaming cheating on your kids parents, lack of official, the cheater, etc. Tennis is not fair. Life is not fair. There are dignified ways to go about navigating life's waters. Blaming others is not one of them.

There are two kinds of cheaters.

First, the ones we all know, anything within a foot of the line, if the official is nowhere to be seen, is OUT.

Second type, I've encountered this one in the past year, and its actually brilliant! (if you take out the blatant dishonesty)
...Anytime the "cheater" is down a game, two games etc, as they are calling the score (semi-audibally ) ...you notice the score sounds wrong...you kind of hear it, but think you must have misheard (it was just 4-3, not 3-4.).. But now suddenly your kid is upset (you were right!). The "cheater" argues, you kid argues, the official comes over. Guess what happens? Score is set back to 3-3.. Because its the "last score the kids can agree on". Technically true, but so wrong!

I saw this in two tournaments (NL3 Regionals), same offender, witnessed it in four matches. It was crazy. Someone spoke to the offender's parent, but he just kind of hung his head and said "what can I do ?,I can't interject...". I saw three 12 year olds in tears. Tears! The injustice! And it was. Worst thing I've ever seen in a junior league. Once is a mistake, 4 times (plus the other cases I didn't witness but I heard about from the offended)...It is a strategy.

So you watch your potential opponents (the cheater "beating" everybody), and you tell your kid what's gonna happen. Because it will. And what we drilled is, do not let them serve until you both hear the score. Stop the serve if you don't hear. Make them call the score out. If there's a discrepancy, put you racket up. Keep putting your racket up until the officials get so tired of walking back and forth, they just stay there.

Because the worst thing to see is your kid, playing better, but giving up when everything near a line is out, and every game won is a "back at square one" . It would discourage me too! It literally becomes not about tennis anymore. It some kind of poker game...what are you gonna do about it?!

You have to give your kids the tools..the exact specific tools. "This is what they WILL do, this is what YOU HAVE to do when that happens. Do not wait." No benefit of the doubt for that specific opponent. It is not a maybe, it is a strategy.

Sad, so sad. But true. In 6 years of jr tennis, I can truly say I have only seen two habitual cheaters, but those are the ones that will break your kid down, and the ones, in their "winning" strategies, you will see over and over again. Most important thing is: keep calling the official. When the official once again walks away, call them back, and then again. About the fifth time, they stay. Between the officials presence, and your kids insistance on questioning calls and calling officials, the other kid starts to understand. Its the Only shot your kid has to show the "cheater" their game will not work today.

Saying this, most kids make mistakes or bad calls, but they try their best. They believe what they believe, and the parents see what they think they see. You have to trust or let go. Most of the time, they are not "trying to cheat" they just aren't. We're all human.

So now, if I see the ball hit a line, I assume it might have been out, or in, ...and the caller gets to call it. No use worrying about those. It's the blatant calls...two foot in or out, and the change scores on you type of calls that are the only ones that offend my sense of justice.

All the other 99% of the kids making calls are just trying their human best.

[coaching32yrs]

Lala: I used to believe as you do- deliberate cheating by juniors was rare. Now I think dfferently because the evidence is overwhelming. A significant percentage of the top juniors deliberately cheat. I do not have sour grapes and I do not have a horse in this race. Of course, you have to teach your youngster that life isn't fair and all that jazz.
I've played adult and senior USTA since it started. There is a bit of cheating, but it is about 2-3% of what it is at the junior level. Adults sometmes allow the opponent to make the call when they don't have a good look- I've yet to see that in a junior match. Unfortunately cheating is part of the culture of American junior tennis.

[lala28m]

Originally Posted by coaching32yrs

Lala: I used to believe as you do- deliberate cheating by juniors was rare. Now I think dfferently because the evidence is overwhelming. A significant percentage of the top juniors deliberately cheat. I do not have sour grapes and I do not have a horse in this race. Of course, you have to teach your youngster that life isn't fair and all that jazz.
I've played adult and senior USTA since it started. There is a bit of cheating, but it is about 2-3% of what it is at the junior level. Adults sometmes allow the opponent to make the call when they don't have a good look- I've yet to see that in a junior match. Unfortunately cheating is part of the culture of American junior tennis.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. You're right. I have often let the opponent make a call for me, if I did not have a clear view. And have had the reverse happen.
But have never seen that in juniors. I guess you might be on to something. It's just so hard to call a kid a liar. Even to just acknowledge it to myself.

What is true though..it's not just American kids. The international tournaments are far worse. Maybe because the kids are more invested, traveling overseas and all...but those kids and those parents would put the two "cheaters" I mentioned in my earlier comment to shame. They are just blatant, and hide behind the foreign language "barrier", but you can just ask a passerby to translate (not that you need that. You can tell, it's not a "c'mon" 5 minute instruction being yelled at the kid, along with finger twirls and whatever other gestures). Unfortunately, it's a worldwide juniour problem, I suppose. Hopefully, they will grow out of it. Or at least be forced to...bigger tournaments = more exposure/more officials.

[chalkflewup]

Originally Posted by coaching32yrs

Lala: I used to believe as you do- deliberate cheating by juniors was rare. Now I think dfferently because the evidence is overwhelming. A significant percentage of the top juniors deliberately cheat. I do not have sour grapes and I do not have a horse in this race. Of course, you have to teach your youngster that life isn't fair and all that jazz.
I've played adult and senior USTA since it started. There is a bit of cheating, but it is about 2-3% of what it is at the junior level. Adults sometmes allow the opponent to make the call when they don't have a good look- I've yet to see that in a junior match. Unfortunately cheating is part of the culture of American junior tennis.

I was at JOB, Eddie Herr, many of the nationals, and I would have to disagree. What evidence are you referring to supports that a "significant percentage" of the top juniors cheat? And what is significant? Please state facts i.e. 2 out of 3 dentists...

[andfor]

^^^. This is another big issue I have with the "it's the parent's fault" and the "widespread jr. cheaters" crowd. It all comes down to a handful of folks here saying they "saw it with their own eyes".

I'll say I've been to many of the very high level junior tournaments and seen widespread generous line calling. Literally attended hundreds of matches. I've seen many kids playing balls that should have been out as in, good sportsmanship, etc. Over and over I see this. Do I see what I think is a bad call every now and then, yes. But its so isolated. Are juniors more competitive than many adults, yes. But they are naturally immature, learning their way and don't see the bigger picture yet. They will with the help of parenting, coaching and age. All this doesn't mean kids are inherently cheaters, it's the parents fault and they are being coached to cheat as many are assuming. These thoughts are just absured.

Overall, I just pick up on sour grapes and lack of coaching on how to handle bad line calls in the right way.

[TCF]

==========================

[andfor]

^^^Thanks. One last thing.

The idea of writing a letter or worse a letter writing campaign about a so called junior tennis player line calling cheater is very disturbing to me. Demonizing a kid over perceived bad line calling is simply tantamount to parent bullying of a child. If a kid develops a reputation as a cheater, be prepared before the match and know how to deal with it. I can't tell you how many matches I've watch where a kid has been identified as a cheater before the match and nothing happens out of the ordinary during those matches, regardless of the outcome.

Writing a letter over egregious bad sportsmanship like cussing, coaching, physical violence, verbal threats, uncalled for parent involvement, etc. that is supported by witnesses, sure write the letter(s). Otherwise let the kids play their matches, stop trying to win matches from the side lines and stop the excuse making.

[TCF]

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[treeman10]

I agree with all of you, it's overstated and it's a problem, sometimes. I know two coaches and am familiar with their cheating techniques. One taught his kid, how to flip 30-40 and when (critical games like 5-4) and even flipping games in a set scores, which shots/balls to call out, etc. He was very proud that he came from a culture that winning at all cost is what matters and didn't mind sharing his strategy with those in his inner circle. A letter writing campaign effectively got them to put this kid on the watch list. Another coach flips his cap to indicate certain strategies at the higher levels, etc. So intentional cheating is out there and it is annoying when your kid is the victim. When it's during the final of a tournament and it costs your kid the match/tournament whether it's the points robbed or the emotional tailspin it send them in can suck. Yes, they need to learn to handle that however, and its a good lesson. Eventually they are at a level where there is a ref at finals or kids don't cheat them. And does it keep a kid from rising to the top? No. It creates bumps along the way and they have to get over those. Sometimes players are in a position where points from one tournament are key to qualifying for something really important, so I do sympathize with the stress of all of this. Better to lose straight out than to feel you were cheated out of it. Just do your best to teach your child not to be a victim on the court, just like in life everyday.

[tennis-player]

Lala, I've heard about score "inaccuracies" from my own teammates with teenager children. Not sure if it's very brilliant or very disturbing.....

[lala28m]

Originally Posted by tennis-player

Lala, I've heard about score "inaccuracies" from my own teammates with teenager children. Not sure if it's very brilliant or very disturbing.....

Brilliant, as in cunning. Of course, it's disturbing. Brilliant and disturbing are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
It was my first time witnessing this in many years of junior tourneys.. I'm hoping now that's it's not a trend we will be encountering in the future, since you're mentioning this as a known tactic of sort.
I just remember how long it took me to catch on to what was happening, right in front of me, that day. Its not something I would ever think to do or most people would have the gall to do in front of a small crowd of people.

[Milan]

Originally Posted by Woolybugger

...

Shot spot on every court ...Technology...

and

if that's not possible.. if Kids are cheating (proven cheating).. 1 year suspension.

[andfor]

Originally Posted by Milan

Shot spot on every court ...Technology...

and

if that's not possible.. if Kids are cheating (proven cheating).. 1 year suspension.

In junior tennis your idea 1 will never happen and idea 2 will never happen. Sounds good, but unrealistic.

[North]

Originally Posted by Milan

Shot spot on every court ...Technology...

and

if that's not possible.. if Kids are cheating (proven cheating).. 1 year suspension.

Not really practicable. I have, however, seen people bring video cams & film matches when there is a known "problem child" playing who has been getting away with some of the brilliant but disturbing stuff that sometimes goes on.

I think the incidence of poor behavior, including, but not limited to, cheating, varies with locality, TDs, parents in the area, and perhaps some other factor(s).

[chalkflewup]

If bad calls occur, teach your kid how to deal with it. Cheating happens but it's not out of control at junior tournaments. Parents need to learn how to accept losing, teach their kids the same and get ready for the next match.

[tennis5]

Originally Posted by chalkflewup

If bad calls occur, teach your kid how to deal with it. Cheating happens but it's not out of control at junior tournaments. Parents need to learn how to accept losing, teach their kids the same and get ready for the next match.

It is not an occasional bad call that folks are complaining about.

It is systematic cheating where balls land on the line, inside the court near the line, and a foot inside the line that are constantly called out,
or the score is constantly being changed .

You say teach kids how to deal with it.
Well, when there is only one ref for ten to twelve courts, it is hard to get the ref over to watch more than two balls.......

So, I know I might be a bit slow here, but is "deal with it" code for cheating back?
Otherwise, I am not sure what you are referring to?

[SoCal10s]

maybe this idea may help .record matches and review cheaters and mis-conduct who have a 'reputation'.. . with a small investment from the USTA and a little note to all parents and players participating in some tournaments ... something like this::

"" the USTA is doing and in house experiment trying to curb cheating "" we will be recording certain matches and will b reviewing them"" ""if anyone is found guilty of cheating,you will be suspended from future participation for 6 months ect. ect..::: --- (some of you better writers can elaborate on this)...

I think this would scare the crap out of some cheaters and straighten up a bit..

[tennis5]

Originally Posted by SoCal10s

maybe this idea may help .record matches and review cheaters and mis-conduct who have a 'reputation'.. . with a small investment from the USTA and a little note to all parents and players participating in some tournaments ... something like this::

"" the USTA is doing and in house experiment trying to curb cheating "" we will be recording certain matches and will b reviewing them"" ""if anyone is found guilty of cheating,you will be suspended from future participation for 6 months ect. ect..::: --- (some of you better writers can elaborate on this)...

I think this would scare the crap out of some cheaters and straighten up a bit..

SoCal,

You might not know about this, but the sections are already suspending kids who are caught cheating.

In the past few months, there have been two big suspensions that I know of, one was 3 months for cheating,
and the other was 6 months for cursing out the TD ( yes, a boy...).

But, I have heard juniors come back from their suspensions and laugh about it
( sit there quietly with a book at a tournament and you will be amazed at what you hear.).

So, in all fairness, sections are doing their jobs with the suspensions, but it doesn't seem to stick with the kids....
They go right back to their ways.
Maybe, this is a maturity issue, I don't know.

[SoCal10s]

yes I know about different suspensions .. SCTA have been doing these things since I've played Jr tournaments .. and believe me, stupid kids can talk big and laugh about being suspended ,but the bottom line is, 'it's a fix' .. having 'bad boys' not being around for six months , a year ,2 years .. what ever, is still better than having a bad seed to ruin the rest of the crop..

I still believe that deep down all kids are good .. kids have purity inside them that can be influenced to change for the better .. so I don't give up on kids.. the problem is that kids needs to live with their effed up adults parents.. and those are the ones that cannot be changed ..