Are the WTA players not strong enough for the WW forehand?

[luvforty]

they can... but the shortest distance from A to B is a straight line.

not possible in tennis with gravity, spin and all, but the closest proxy is a less curvy 'flat' ball.

you send a curve ball over, the other girl can run there and hit a flat back, now YOU are in trouble.

you send a flat one over, she maybe in trouble.

risk/reward.

not to mention the nature of the topspin ball - has a tendency to land shorter than a flat one, even if the aim is deep.

[FrisbeeFool]

I think a lot of guys at the club level could benefit by flattening out their forehands. The average person is not built like Andreev or Nadal. For us mere mortals that can generate only so much racket head speed, There's a choice about how much of that needs to go into spin to bring the ball up and down, and how much of it need to go into the flat penetrating aspect of the shot.

A lot of guys at the club level hit short spinny balls that sit up waiting to be crushed and think they are copying what they see on tv.

Look at a player like Davydenko. He's not the biggest guy in the world. He hits his ball a little flatter than some of the other guys. It allows him to play a very aggressive game.

Everyone should find a playing style that suits them. That being said, some of the wta takebacks on their forehands are so ridiculously ugly. A lot of the younger women on the tour are not using the Sharapova/Serena style takeback. More of the up and coming players have more atp style takebacks.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by corners

I'm with Tennisfreak and isilra. The poster tricky has written a lot about the differences between the ATP and WTA forehand techniques. As Tennisfreak points out, the ATP technique uses the stretch-shortening cycle at the forearm and shoulder to generate greater RHS. RHS can be used to produce ball speed, ball spin, or both. The women generally have enough RHS to generate good ball speed and moderate spin. The men can hit the same speed with an extra 1000 rpms of topspin, or flatten it out and hit 100 mph winners. There is also something about the rapid pronation of the forearm that seems to generate "free" spin, especially for guys like Nadal and Federer, who, like isilra points out, use funky pronation-supination-pronation technique. The women tend to wipe by creating an arch with their elbows (internal shoulder rotation) while the men wipe from the forearm and wrist.

Why don't more women hit like the men? Maybe it has something to do with grip strength as kids. To hit the ATP stroke there is a whip or lag in the transition between the takeback and forward stroke. This takes quite a bit of grip strength, especially in the thumb. It may be that little girls aren't strong enough to "whip" the adult size racquets they are given as children and must layback the wrist before the forward swing starts and use lots of trunk rotation to get that big racquet to come around with speed. Boys are stronger, especially in the wrist and shoulder, and so might find it easier to whip their racquets like they see the ATP players on TV do. They also are strong enough in the shoulder that they don't have to rotate the trunk so much and instead are able to harness the power of hip snap.

There also might be a coordination issue. The ATP forehand is a bit like a sidearm throw. The old phrase "throw like a girl" is often referenced when talking about teaching young girls or women to serve; this issue might be involved on the forehand too.

But how to explain the case of Raonic? He's a big guy, and obviously has good throwing mechanics with that monster serve. But he's got a WTA-style forehand and can't generate enough spin to harness his considerable power. In his case, I'm not sure he will make it to the top 5 without retooling his forehand as Henin did. According to John Yandell, she and her coach hit the video archives, focusing on Agassi in particular, and managed to create an ATP-style stroke for herself. Don't see why Raonic couldn't do the same.

Grip strength has nothing to do with it. Most of these guys have extremely loose grips.

[FrisbeeFool]

Raonic does not have a wta style forehand. That is laughable. Look at the picture TennisBalla posted of Sharapova and Nadal's takebacks. Then watch Raonic's forehand.

[FrisbeeFool]

Originally Posted by corners

But how to explain the case of Raonic? He's a big guy, and obviously has good throwing mechanics with that monster serve. But he's got a WTA-style forehand and can't generate enough spin to harness his considerable power. In his case, I'm not sure he will make it to the top 5 without retooling his forehand as Henin did. According to John Yandell, she and her coach hit the video archives, focusing on Agassi in particular, and managed to create an ATP-style stroke for herself. Don't see why Raonic couldn't do the same.

Does Raonic have a problem hitting forehands long? His Forehand looks pretty textbook to me.

[boramiNYC]

raonic has some things to sort out on his fh. he uses too much of the leg push into the shot. and too little of core rotation. I wouldn't call it a WTA style tho. just a little awkward looking. at his height he should look at isner's fh which is pretty solid.

[luvforty]

i agree that most recs should hit flatter.... well i guess after the technique is somewhat solid, like high 4.0 ish...... (below which it's really not tennis lol)... it's more difficult to build foot speed.... genetics, fitness etc... requires lot of work.

much easier to buy a powerful frame and play first strike.

[dominikk1985]

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

Raonic does not have a wta style forehand. That is laughable. Look at the picture TennisBalla posted of Sharapova and Nadal's takebacks. Then watch Raonic's forehand.

yes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E00gOiHbuoY

he does slightly pronate at the end of his backswing just not much.

[rkelley]

I think strength, specifically upper body strength, is a very important factor between the men and the women. All things being equal, good form and all, a guy can swing a tennis racquet faster than a woman. For that matter a big guy and swing faster than a smaller guy.

If you're just hitting through the ball then there's an upper limit on rhs that going to make a difference. After a certain point you're just going to hit the ball long. For most tennis shots anyone, man or woman, can get to that point. After that if you want more pace, or more margin, you have to have more rhs that will go into generating topspin.

The men have that extra strength to maintain, even increase the pace and still add loads of spin. Watch these guys hitting their shots. Does it look like they're holding back much? The women are going to have a harder time doing this. It seems like the woman generally are making the trade-off to go with more pace and less spin because they have to have the pace to hang in the rallies with the top players.

Note that these are all generalizations. I do think there are technique differences that make a difference, even among top pros. I think a guy like Federer is probably getting more pace and spin that someone else his size could because his form more efficiently focuses the energy his body creates right on to the contact point with the ball.

I wonder if anyone's made measurements of racquet head velocity (magnitude and direction) throughout the swing. I would be interesting to compare a profile of racquet head velocity between different players.

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

yes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E00gOiHbuoY

he does slightly pronate at the end of his backswing just not much.

From what I see Raonic is still hitting through the ball quite a bit. He has a nice WW follow through, but at the contact point the racquet has a very large component going through the ball. What happens after contact won't affect the ball.

[luvforty]

it only makes sense.

Raonic can't run, so risk/reward determines he'd rather take more risk in hitting flat.

all the big guys hit like this.... if you can't run, you have to hit for penetration.

[dominikk1985]

does li na qualify as a modern FH? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIfYUSE0J4Y

[corners]

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

Raonic does not have a wta style forehand. That is laughable. Look at the picture TennisBalla posted of Sharapova and Nadal's takebacks. Then watch Raonic's forehand.

Well, I'm not sure what your definition of a WTA forehand is, but Raonic's technique is much more similar to Kuznetsova, Clisters or DelPotro than it is to Fed, Nadal, Berdych.

Yes, he keeps the racquet on the right side (toward the right fence) rather than taking it behind him like Sharapova and many of the women, but there are some subtle differences that fall under the definitions I use for WTA vs. ATP forehands. Notice the high takeback with racquet tip pointed to the sky. The men usually take back lower with the racquet tip pointed toward the net. Notice that he is flexing the right knee over the toes as he loads up the backswing and then "strides" in the shot using a lot of quad action. Federer and Nadal load their right heel and sit "back", and then rotate out with a lot more hip snap, which comes from the glutes and hamstrings more than the quads. They might still stride forward on some shots, but the main power source is hips rather than thighs. Notice how his non-hitting arm tends to point toward the ground. The Men almost always keep the non-hitting arm at shoulder level. Notice how his hitting arm is bent more than most men who use a similar grip, this is also a feature of the WTA style. Also, notice how his hitting-arm elbow is very high, coming up almost to eye level, during the follow through. The men typically have the elbow coming around at or blow shoulder level, especially Fed and Nadal, with a very tight wrap. Finally, the men usually have a lag, where the racquet head snaps behind their hand and lags behind their shoulder as they swing forward. The racquet then slings forward and contact is made further forward then where most women and Raonic hit. In order to allow the racquet to catch up, Fed and Nadal in particular stop the movement of the hips at some point, which sends the energy up the kinetic chain to the shoulder and out through the arm, like a whip. As a consequence of this, their weight is squarely on their front foot much earlier than the "striding" WTA style has it. (Although this clearly doesn't apply to shots hit off the back foot.)

All these observations come from posts by "tricky" who has analyzed this stuff in detail. It's all opinion, though, but I happen to buy it.

I actually think his forehand most resembles DelPotro, but DelPotro has much better depth control.

[corners]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

Grip strength has nothing to do with it. Most of these guys have extremely loose grips.

Maybe, but I can tell you with certainty that the thumb is crucial to the ATP style. Try hitting like Fed or Nadal while keeping your thumb off the handle entirely. Then wind up like Sharapova. You'll find that thumbs aren't necessary to hit like Sharapova but essential to hit like Fed or Nadal.

[LeeD]

I see most of the younger WTA players use a stronger grip, more W, and a full WW finish.
That doesn't seem to be true for most of the top 20 WTA players, but some do use a W grip and do turnover the finish for a WW effect produced by the strong grip.

[dominikk1985]

While details are important we should not make the error to invent reasons why certain movements are important. Of course I can say spreading the pinky of the non hitting arm pre stretches the forearm for a more effective pull back, but that doesn't make it true.

just because a lot of players do something it doesn't mean that it also has a function.

there is absolutely no proof for example that a federer like pronated take back is more effective than a DP like takeback. I'm not saying there is nothing to this but just because someone says so this doesn't mean that this movement must be beneficial.

I'm not saying that fed does random moves but often moves result from something further upstream. We should not lose the focus for the importan parts.

[user92626]

Originally Posted by luvforty

i agree that most recs should hit flatter.... well i guess after the technique is somewhat solid, like high 4.0 ish...... (below which it's really not tennis lol)... it's more difficult to build foot speed.... genetics, fitness etc... requires lot of work.

much easier to buy a powerful frame and play first strike.

My experience is the opposite though. Majority of rec players hit too flatish and frequently into the net or long. Think about this: tennis seems to be meant to be played frequently with many long rallies and point ended with a winner or difficult shot. That's what pros show us. Rec players do the opposite, frequently bashing the ball out for no reason.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by corners

Maybe, but I can tell you with certainty that the thumb is crucial to the ATP style. Try hitting like Fed or Nadal while keeping your thumb off the handle entirely. Then wind up like Sharapova. You'll find that thumbs aren't necessary to hit like Sharapova but essential to hit like Fed or Nadal.

I do. everyday. My thumb doesn't grip my racquet at all on the fh and I don't swing like Sharapova. I get a lot of power and a lot of spin. And during my takeback I apply pressure on the racquet with my 3rd and 4th finger only. The racquet just lays in my hand. Almost no pressure.

[dominikk1985]

mauresmo also had a quite "manly" swing (you can see that this ball was hit slightly above center which is why her racket is not closing at contact)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUt0EOwTw8M

[2ManyAces]

Originally Posted by tennis_balla

Ash posted this a while ago, and I think it demonstrates perfectly the answer the OP is looking for.

based on the picture, simply observe that each player is taking the racquet back at different points.

Rafa is taking it back quite noticeably less than Sharapova. This means he can use more time to calculate the shot etc, and then use his sheer muscle to bring the racquet around.

Sharapova needs to bring the racquet back slightly farther than Rafa because she simply does not have the muscle mass that Rafa possesses.