Who is the female Tennis GOAT?

[tbuggle]

Originally Posted by rainingaces

williams are lucky that anyone decent in their era retired almost in their prime, dont forget that little fact. Davenport had two more slams in her and henin was near her prime.

not to mention, Clijsters is better than either of the two.

[tbuggle]

i agree we can't re-write history. otherwise Borg might just be the GOAT as well.

[ctjpm]

'how many classic majors would Laver have won, had he not turned pro at the end of 1962.'

Sad. Take away '06-'10 from Federer & '94-'98' from Sampras and both their GS totals nose dive. Pointless to do so but still highlights how great Laver was.
There's no point rewriting history, though it is fun. 1997 without Graf falling apart for instance.

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

This is the tired and true Graftard method over the years, always without fail.

-Those who achieved less than Graf vs greater competition, but still enough to be compared given the greater competition and higher level of play they displayed (eg- Serena, pre stabbing Seles), simply dismiss them saying "they dont have the numbers".

-Those who achieved more than Graf in every sense (Court, at one point and if you factor doubles Navratilova) qualify their wins with excuses and say numbers dont matter anymore.

Voila Graf ends up the mythical GOAT, works everytime.


BTW nearly everyone who followed the game back then feels the best surface of both Court and Laver would have been hard courts, and they both probably would have won even more slams if the U.S Open was on hard courts back then. So that "grass only" excuse is also a poor one. Plus back then grass the was the preeminent surface of tennis then, just like hard courts is today.

YOU are killing it na.

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Originally Posted by rainingaces

Davenport had two more slams in her and henin was near her prime.

According to...?

[Phoenix1983]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

and if she didnt Graf would just call her good friend Gunther to stab her. Serena is tougher than Monica though, and would be back on court playing slam winning tennis in less than 3 months, and Graf would be like oh crap what do I do now, my usual tactics didnt work.

I'd just like to point out that everything NadalAgassi has said in this thread is motivated not by logic but by irrational hatred of Graf - as shown in the above quote.

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by SystemicAnomaly

Point 1 is pointless. Your argument there makes no sense. On point 2, why are you bringing up what "some ppl" say about Laver? Most consider Federer to be GOAT rather than Laver. Also, you criticized me earlier claiming that I was not taking any other factors other than total achievements into consideration -- in a vacuum? When I bring up one of these other factors, you criticize me for that. Where is the consistency, man?

As for competition these greats faced, I also mentioned that Court was not playing against a strong field at the 11 AO singles events that she won. You are wrong on that account as well.

Get your facts straight... Again, where in this thread or any other thread did I claim that Serena was using steroids. In another thread, not this one, I speculated that Serena might have high testosterone levels but I never did claim that she was using steroids.

As for competition faced by others... NA keeps harping on the Seles stabbing. Even w/o Seles in the picture, Graf still had plenty of competition. It was not a "weak era" w/o Seles as some would have you believe. Note also that pre-stabbing, Graf and Seles met 10 times and Graf still had the lead head-to-head. At Wimbledon (89 & 92), Steffi blew Monica out of the water. Check out those scores.

point1- in you didn't know ppl considered laver the best before fed then you obviously don't follow tennis that well and shouldn't debate a goat list.

and its called using your argument against you. you claim to consider a person's whole career but rate someone with no major dbls or mix dbls titles over the two best in at least achievement? even if just do singles graf's numbers aren't much better than court's or nav's.

point2- competition? like who? vicario,or novonta? many of her rivals like capriati,davenport,pierce and hingis were better players during serena's time.

point3- graf-seles h2h is misleading. in 1990 seles was 16, in 88 she was 14 when she debuted. at that time graf was 20 and 18. 3 of graf's wins were seles was 15,graf 19. it was alot closer(4-3 seles) when monica started reaching her prime but she was beating graf on 3 of 4 surfaces.

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Originally Posted by Phoenix1983

I'd just like to point out that everything NadalAgassi has said in this thread is motivated not by logic but by irrational hatred of Graf - as shown in the above quote.

NadalAgassi's was making a facetious remark, man.

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Originally Posted by TERRASTAR18

point1- in you didn't know ppl considered laver the best before fed then you obviously don't follow tennis that well and shouldn't debate a goat list.

..and that's revealing, if true, when it is common knowledge. Laver's status has been a fact of tennis history and discussions for decades, long before Federer was born. Like Graf, it was that supreme achievement which catapulted both to the long accepted GOAT stage.

[TMF]

Put it this way...the gap between Graf and Serena is wider than the gap between Serena and Seles. Yet, you don't want no part in debating Seles vs. Serena but continue to argue for Serena with Graf in goatness. Hilarious.

[NadalAgassi]

While if the Seles stabbing never happened Serena, Graf, and Seles would all currently have about 15 slams, and Serena would be on course to blow both away by the end of 2013 even rather than chasing Graf's inflated and undeserved 22 slams. People arent willing to debate Serena vs Seles since at this point Seles has no edge. Serena has higher peak level play, tougher competition, way more slams, won on all surfaces which Seles could never do on grass or at Wimbledon, way more longevity. Unlike Seles vs Serena, Serena vs Graf can be debated since Serena is superior to Graf in some ways- much tougher competition, higher peak level play, much greater longevity, one of the all time great doubles and singles players while Graf was nothing in doubles. The only way Serena is closer to Seles than Graf is slam titles (6 ahead of Seles, 7 behind Graf) and even that is likely soon no longer forever.

[tennisaddict]

GOAT in terms of records is Graf

Better player is Graf

Serena and Martina are very close.

[NadalAgassi]

Surprised Billie Jean King doesnt have a single vote yet. Then again I cant think of a single thing about her record or play that is the best of anyone in history, other than her many off court contributions in conjuction with her outstanding tennis and career.

[tennis_pro]

Originally Posted by NadalAgassi

While if the Seles stabbing never happened Serena, Graf, and Seles would all currently have about 15 slams, and Serena would be on course to blow both away by the end of 2013 even rather than chasing Graf's inflated and undeserved 22 slams. People arent willing to debate Serena vs Seles since at this point Seles has no edge. Serena has higher peak level play, tougher competition, way more slams, won on all surfaces which Seles could never do on grass or at Wimbledon, way more longevity. Unlike Seles vs Serena, Serena vs Graf can be debated since Serena is superior to Graf in some ways- much tougher competition, higher peak level play, much greater longevity, one of the all time great doubles and singles players while Graf was nothing in doubles. The only way Serena is closer to Seles than Graf is slam titles (6 ahead of Seles, 7 behind Graf) and even that is likely soon no longer forever.

Tougher competition? Henin, Venus weren't exactly mugs but not close to peak Graf who Seles beat in slams in 1990-1993.

[NadalAgassi]

Originally Posted by tennis_pro

Tougher competition? Henin, Venus weren't exactly mugs but not close to peak Graf who Seles beat in slams in 1990-1993.

Venus in 2002-2003 was definitely better than Graf of 1991-1992. Venus made the finals of 5 of the 6 slams she played at one point those 2 years vs Graf making only 3 of 8. Graf in 91-92 lost in slams to Novotna (on slow hard courts which she sucks on), 35 year old Navratilova, Sanchez twice including a 6-2, 6-0, Sabatini. Also 1991-1992 was most definitely not peak Graf, in addition to what I already pointed out, she even lost 7 of 8 matches to Sabatini at one point. It is a shame we never ended up seeing peak Seles and peak Graf together at once, but I doubt either would have won 3 or 4 slams every year if they had. Neither is great enough to do that vs a real opponent also playing at their top, the way people like Navratilova, Court, and Serena are, hence why in 1993-1995 when both would have been prime together, we probably would have seen them split evenly, with a few slams going to other places, and both ending up with roughly 15, exactly where Serena is now but in Serena's case with alot more to come probably. Then the rest of the field of 91-92 was really old Navratilova, Sabatini, and 15 year old Capriati vs Henin, Clijsters, adult Capriati, Mauresmo, Davenport all at or near their best. Again no comparision. 1990-1993 was an ok field, 1999-2003 was the toughest field in womens tennis history, and 2004-2008 wasnt far behind.

Lets compare who Serena actually beat to win her 5 slams in 2002-2003 vs who Seles beat to win her 6 slams in 1991-1992:

Seles 91 Australian- Novotna
Seles 91 French- Sanchez
Seles 91 U.S Open- 35 year old Navratilova
Seles 92 Australian- Mary Joe Fernandez
Seles 92 French- Graf
Seles 92 U.S Open- Sanchez

Serena beat Venus in the finals to win all 5 of her slams in 2002-2003, a way tougher opponent than anyone Seles beat in the finals in 91-92 except for Graf in the finals of the 92 French (which was followed up by losing to Graf 6-2, 6-1 in the Wimbledon final). Comparing semifinal and quarterfinal opponents Serena's competition just pulls way further ahead.

[merlinpinpin]

(Multiple) career grand slam in singles, doubles, and mixed doubles, had to play against *two* GOAT candidates (Evert during most of her career, changing her whole game to take the better off her, and Graf in her latter years)--noone really comes close to Navratilova in my mind, even if Graf was very opportunistic with the Seles stabbing and used it to compile a better GS record.

Graf second, of course.

And all of those who rank Serena Williams above Evert (and above Navratilova), I guess your only excuse is that you started watching tennis a couple of years ago. Williams is currently far behind Evert, trying to hype her as GOAT really is irelevant at this point, she isn't even top 3 yet and there's really no way around it.

[Phoenix1983]

Originally Posted by THUNDERVOLLEY

NadalAgassi's was making a facetious remark, man.

Hmm maybe he was but he still hasn't provided an answer to a few pertinent questions;

1). Why does he state hypotheticals about what would have happened if the Seles stabbing hadn't occurred (Graf slam count going down to 15 etc.) but doesn't do this for any other event or player in tennis history - i.e. Connolly if she hadn't been injured, Budge if WWII hadn't happened, Borg if he'd played the AO etc ?

2). Why does he state his assumptions as if they are fact when we don't know what would have happened? I see he has ignored my point about McEnroe and Lendl because he knows deep down that we have no idea who would have won the slams played during those years.

Until he answers these questions satisfactorily his arguments have little credibility to me.

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by merlinpinpin

(Multiple) career grand slam in singles, doubles, and mixed doubles, had to play against *two* GOAT candidates (Evert during most of her career, changing her whole game to take the better off her, and Graf in her latter years)--noone really comes close to Navratilova in my mind, even if Graf was very opportunistic with the Seles stabbing and used it to compile a better GS record.

Graf second, of course.

And all of those who rank Serena Williams above Evert (and above Navratilova), I guess your only excuse is that you started watching tennis a couple of years ago. Williams is currently far behind Evert, trying to hype her as GOAT really is irelevant at this point, she isn't even top 3 yet and there's really no way around it.

nav played like two ppl while serena had 6 to deal with. maybe all you watch is the final of tournaments.

[TERRASTAR18]

Originally Posted by Phoenix1983

Oh so because you did a breakdown, that means it is true?

People always throw out these hypotheticals and rank players based on what they think would have happened - even if these things sometimes contradict each other (i.e. saying that Borg is GOAT because he would have won all the AOs played in the 70s but then also saying Connors would have won all four slams if he'd played in the French in 1974 and would have taken more French titles off Borg throughout the 1970s - which would of course negate Borg's place as GOAT).

In any case I'm getting off the point, which is that the pre-Open Era (and yes I'm aware there was no pro-am split as in the men's, but the level of play and competition was still lower than in the professional era where women knew they were getting paid and thus dedicated themselves more to their sport, skill, fitness etc.) was weaker than the Open Era. Especially the AO.

Plus I love how you assume that Seles would have continued dominating after 1993 when we don't know that is the case. Let's assume McEnroe had been stabbed at the end of 1984 and had to retire, but everything else played out as it actually did. Lendl still ended up dominating the late 80s. In your world, Lendl could not possibly have done this if Mac hadn't been stabbed - but we all know he did anyway.



1999-2003, certainly - a golden age of womens' tennis.



I don't especially rate the womens' tour today but that is a matter of personal opinion.

from 2004-2007, she had henin,clijsters, kuzzy, mauresmo, sharapova,dementieva, venus still winning wimbly, and davenport.

[Phoenix1983]

Originally Posted by TERRASTAR18

from 2004-2007, she had henin,clijsters, kuzzy, mauresmo, sharapova,dementieva, venus still winning wimbly, and davenport.

LOL most of them were basket cases......Dementieva never won a slam, Clijsters was a major choker until the 2005 US Open and then retired for a bit...Mauresmo was a headcase who only broke through in 2006 and was never a consistent challenger across all slams.....Kuznetsova won the US in 04 and did little else during this period...

Henin I will give you obviously and she dominated Serena for a while. Venus and Sharapova, yes.

But don't pretend it compares to 1999-2003 with peak Serena, peak Venus, close to peak Hingis, peak Davenport, peak Capriati, Henin, Graf (at the beginning of the period).