Single handed backhand for juniors...

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by luvforty

shoulder is a joint... it provides range of motion, but not power.

power comes from stretched muscles.... in this case the back muscles.

the shoulder is a joint? gee thanks. so i guess that means the hip is a joint too as well as the wrist. you learn something everyday here.

1hbh is powered by the shoulder. not the back. i guess that explains why you tell everyone to open up on the 1hbh. If you are using the back for power then you are doing it wrong.

power comes from muscle contractions not stretched muscles. you are confusing ssc on the fh with something else. there is ssc on a 1hbh but in much less capacity and just about unnoticeable and occurs mostly in segments of the kinetic chain, if you have one, on a 1hbh and after that a little bit on the forearm if you have good form.

[luvforty]

powered by the shoulder lol.... yeah, lots of power in there... good luck.

[BevelDevil]

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

100 percent wrong!!! Wawrinka - Eastern Almagro - Eastern Dimitrov - Eastern Federer -Eastern Youzhny Eastern. Henin and Guga use a more extreme grip.

I never said they didn't use Eastern! So I was 100% right. Thanks!

There are different variations of pure Eastern (knuckle on top) depending on the position of the heel pad of the palm.

The "classic"/"textbook" Eastern has the heelpad on the top bevel. This creates the "steak knife" or "pistol" grip.

The Eastern that pros use (including Federer) puts the heelpad somewhere on bevel 8 or even closer to 7, which is more behind the handle. This makes the grip play "extreme" even though the index knuckle is in the same spot. This is called a "hammer" grip by some.


Try this: Put on a normal Eastern grip. Now roll the heel of your palm down (behind the handle) as far as it can go while keeping your index knuckle on top. This will make your all your knuckles line up on the top bevel. Now go hit some balls. It should feel pretty damn extreme, right? That's because it is more extreme even though it is still technically called "Eastern." So I would have no qualms about calling this grip "extreme."

The heelpad is probably more important than the index knuckle in determining how extreme a grip plays. I'm pretty sure Gasquet has his heel down further than Federer.

So a player can change the nature of his Eastern grip simply by changing the heel pad and keeping the index knuckle in the same place. i.e., he can make it more "extreme" even though it is technically still "Eastern".

FYI, in the past they used to have different names for grip depending on where the heelpad was. For some reason, the system became simplified to only looking at the index knuckle. This was a bad overrsimplification.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by luvforty

powered by the shoulder lol.... yeah, lots of power in there... good luck.

there's no power in the shoulder muscles? lol. ok.

[luvforty]

good point Devil... yeah, that pistol E grip, you can't really supinate with it.

on a side note, I think the BOTTOM of the grip is much more important than the top..... you can't do anything with the top...

but you must have good leverage from the bottom to lift the racket head up and to the right when the arm supinates.

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

there's no power in the shoulder muscles? lol. ok.

how do you exactly power it with the shoulder? i think it's called arming the ball.

[luvforty]

the power source -

it's almost a mirror image of the ww fh.

from the power position (the 1hbh version of padding the dog), the hips open up clockwise. this creates a stretch in the back muscles... the you contract the back muscles, bringing the arm up and across.... during this process you will feel pressure points -

1) on the heel pad because the opening up of the torso is dragging the racket forward

2) on the top 2 sections of the middle and ring fingers because the torso unwind is also pulling the racket up.

this is when you engage the forearm to actively supinate leveraging the above mentioned pressure points.

this is how you get to the finish that looks like Dimitrov.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by luvforty

how do you exactly power it with the shoulder? i think it's called arming the ball.

The same way you should use the shoulder in the forehand.

And another thing, the TOP of the grip on the 1hbh should be emphasized, Not the bottom. Specifically the knuckle on the top bevel for an eastern grip. A good one hander pulls the buttcap to the ball. You feel this pull
all along on the top bevel from your index finger, down your hand to the buttcap. If you concentrate on the bottom this will lead to tension in the hand wrist which you don't want. Loose grip is better and faster. The supination should be directed/felt along the top bevel. The leading edge, the same way concentration/emphasis is on the 4th bevel etc on a forehand with a semi-western grip.

This is another reason people use the 'pull the sword' analogy because when a samurai pulls the sword out of the sheath they pull from the TOP so that the blade (the bottom of the sword) doesn't scrape against the sheath and stays sharp. The sword is pulled out using the shoulder muscles. Not the back.

[boramiNYC]

Originally Posted by BevelDevil

I never said they didn't use Eastern! So I was 100% right. Thanks!

There are different variations of pure Eastern (knuckle on top) depending on the position of the heel pad of the palm.

The "classic"/"textbook" Eastern has the heelpad on the top bevel. This creates the "steak knife" or "pistol" grip.

The Eastern that pros use (including Federer) puts the heelpad somewhere on bevel 8 or even closer to 7, which is more behind the handle. This makes the grip play "extreme" even though the index knuckle is in the same spot. This is called a "hammer" grip by some.


Try this: Put on a normal Eastern grip. Now roll the heel of your palm down (behind the handle) as far as it can go while keeping your index knuckle on top. This will make your all your knuckles line up on the top bevel. Now go hit some balls. It should feel pretty damn extreme, right? That's because it is more extreme even though it is still technically called "Eastern." So I would have no qualms about calling this grip "extreme."

The heelpad is probably more important than the index knuckle in determining how extreme a grip plays. I'm pretty sure Gasquet has his heel down further than Federer.

So a player can change the nature of his Eastern grip simply by changing the heel pad and keeping the index knuckle in the same place. i.e., he can make it more "extreme" even though it is technically still "Eastern".

FYI, in the past they used to have different names for grip depending on where the heelpad was. For some reason, the system became simplified to only looking at the index knuckle. This was a bad overrsimplification.

I know you have been advocating this for a while but I don't agree. most top 1hbh in fact use pistol grip and it doesn't mean the heelpad will be on top bevil. and I don't think it's that important point. the heelpad can be changed slightly depending on situations. but for anyone who wants to involve wrist instead of locking should use pistol grip.

[boramiNYC]

Originally Posted by luvforty

the power source -

it's almost a mirror image of the ww fh.

from the power position (the 1hbh version of padding the dog), the hips open up clockwise. this creates a stretch in the back muscles... the you contract the back muscles, bringing the arm up and across.... during this process you will feel pressure points -

1) on the heel pad because the opening up of the torso is dragging the racket forward

2) on the top 2 sections of the middle and ring fingers because the torso unwind is also pulling the racket up.

this is when you engage the forearm to actively supinate leveraging the above mentioned pressure points.

this is how you get to the finish that looks like Dimitrov.

can't be farther from the truth, IMO. in your opinion do you have a solid 1hbh?

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by Cheetah

The same way you should use the shoulder in the forehand.

And another thing, the TOP of the grip on the 1hbh should be emphasized, Not the bottom. Specifically the knuckle on the top bevel for an eastern grip. A good one hander pulls the buttcap to the ball. You feel this pull
all along on the top bevel from your index finger, down your hand to the buttcap. If you concentrate on the bottom this will lead to tension in the hand wrist which you don't want. Loose grip is better and faster. The supination should be directed/felt along the top bevel. The leading edge, the same way concentration/emphasis is on the 4th bevel etc on a forehand with a semi-western grip.

This is another reason people use the 'pull the sword' analogy because when a samurai pulls the sword out of the sheath they pull from the TOP so that the blade (the bottom of the sword) doesn't scrape against the sheath and stays sharp. The sword is pulled out using the shoulder muscles. Not the back.

not making much sense.... maybe there is a disconnect.

supination, racket face wipes windshield clockwise, how do you provide any leverage on the top bevel?

btw - drawing a sword is actually a pretty bad analogy..... this is from the old school and you won't have any leverage on balls above chest unless you flip the racket face on the way up to the ball.

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

can't be farther from the truth, IMO. in your opinion do you have a solid 1hbh?

my strike zone is up to my eye balls (in a good way lol), and the racket face is closed, from the power position all the way thru to the end of the follow thru.

can't be more solid than that.

[LeeD]

Drawing a sword is not a great analogy, but better than nothing.
Maybe throwing a frisbee backhand? But that leads to direct takeback, no loop.

[boramiNYC]

yes I like the frisbee better than sword but the shoulder is lifted as well as opened even tho the racquet may travel pretty flat.

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by LeeD

Drawing a sword is not a great analogy, but better than nothing.
Maybe throwing a frisbee backhand? But that leads to direct takeback, no loop.

close enough -

frisbee analogy takes care of the power source and the motion of the arm....

key issue is how do you teach the hand to do what it needs to do to get to a finish like wawrinka or dimitrov..... the old style does not have this element.

[boramiNYC]

Originally Posted by luvforty

not making much sense.... maybe there is a disconnect.

supination, racket face wipes windshield clockwise, how do you provide any leverage on the top bevel?

btw - drawing a sword is actually a pretty bad analogy..... this is from the old school and you won't have any leverage on balls above chest unless you flip the racket face on the way up to the ball.

I think bringing in the term WW is not good. the wrist simply doesn't move as the mirror image of fh. the racquet head cannot go down as much and the swing path needs to be flatter than fh. it doesn't look like WW. the hand supinates completely within that flat swing path. this path can be tilted for lower balls but still I wouldn't call it WW.

[luvforty]

it's not rocket science.... just go out and hit a bunch of chest high balls... this is the height that the old style already has problem with....

but.... if you just try to side-cut the ball with the leading edge as hard as you can, forget about staying sideways, and just uses whatever grip you feel the most comfortable with.... you will find 1hbh is such a breeze to hit.

these debates maybe interesting while watching a couple of chicks playing tennis..... but go trying it out, takes a couple of hitting sessions to get used to...

you will see tremendous increase in spin and control, without sacrificing pace.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by luvforty

not making much sense.... maybe there is a disconnect.

supination, racket face wipes windshield clockwise, how do you provide any leverage on the top bevel?

btw - drawing a sword is actually a pretty bad analogy..... this is from the old school and you won't have any leverage on balls above chest unless you flip the racket face on the way up to the ball.

You don't get much I'll give you that. I guess the fingers tighten on contact just as they do on a forehand. You get leverage by pulling the buttcap towards the ball and then when buttcap passes the ball and comes across. the leverage come there just like in a fh. Like a hammer. To properly hammer a nail you don't drive the head straight down. Well, you can.. but the pros pull on the handle and then pull back (across) and the L shape and the direction change and the angle gives them leverage to pound it in in only a couple of hits instead of hacks who take 10 hits while they tap tap tap in the nail.

drawing the sword is not a bad analogy. You pull out a sword leading by end of the handle. You don't think fed looks like he's drawing a sword here? And look at his shoulder. You don't think he's using it here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX7CcDIkMhE

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

I think bringing in the term WW is not good. the wrist simply doesn't move as the mirror image of fh. the racquet head cannot go down as much and the swing path needs to be flatter than fh. it doesn't look like WW. the hand supinates completely within that flat swing path. this path can be tilted for lower balls but still I wouldn't call it WW.

oh it can go down alright.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uVCOQY50OA

pause at 0:12

kohschreiber's and Almagro's don't go down like this..... but wawrinka's is similar to dimitrov's

[Cheetah]

The Frisbee analogy is not bad