The Serve: Busting misconceptions once and for all

[Relinquis]

it's three times a week, so you take a day or two rest between each 200-250 serve session.

If you are not fit, start with 100 serves sessions. Surely if you are playing tennis regularly you should be able to make 100-150 serves in an hour and then call it a day? Take breaks every 50 serves if you need to.

[Relinquis]

actually, i think you should get a coach. maybe your form is bad and that is why you find it physically difficult to serve regularly.

Maybe you're not tilting your shoulders and you'll get impingement or something.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Relinquis

it's three times a week, so you take a day or two rest between each 200-250 serve session.

If you are not fit, start with 100 serves sessions. Surely if you are playing tennis regularly you should be able to make 100-150 serves in an hour and then call it a day? Take breaks every 50 serves if you need to.

It is not a matter of physical exhaustion. It is a matter of injury.

And after 1 week, do you think if I go back to my regular routine I will retain these benefits? Don't I need to do this every so often?

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Relinquis

actually, i think you should get a coach. maybe your form is bad and that is why you find it physically difficult to serve regularly.

Maybe you're not tilting your shoulders and you'll get impingement or something.

Actually, I have served 75 balls in a row - what my hopper can hold.

Not recently though.

[Relinquis]

When i had a coach this summer he would have me serve out a whole hopper full of balls at the end of every practice session* unless i was particularly worn out, i.e. couldn't move, was dizzy, etc... It helped my consistency lots, although i could probably use specific instruction on my serve now to get to the next level.

You have to put in the work to get consistency, just like the other tennis strokes (forehands, backhands, volleys). The difference is that you generally don't get much serve practice during matches/play, but you can practice serves on your own.

Why not serve a hopper-full after your next practice session or match? A 75 ball hopper is equivalent to serving 12 or so games, i.e. as much as you might do in a best of three match.

I never play through pain though, or if i pull a muscle or have any kind of injury i stop and rest for a few days/a week until i'm 100%. This is not serve specific, i don't get paid for this and want to play for decades to come.


* Practice was generally an hour long of hitting with the coach, ground stroke drills or simulated points.

[treblings]

i suggest renaming the thread in: "How to improve my serve without a coach and without practicing"

@ LeeD: i guess the offer to fly you in and set you up at a resort is out of the window now

consistency comes with consistent training. consistent means regular and concentrating on the same one or two issues over a prolonged period of time, if possible under professional guidance. there´s your magic tip for free

[Chas Tennis]

MYTH: Pronation produces significant racket head speed on the serve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1C6V_3s4nA

This dated video is not correct and is misleading. It should be replaced to reflect the current biomechanical analysis of the serve. (I'm a big fan of FYB.)

REALITY: Internal shoulder (upper arm rotation) produces the greatest contribution to racket head speed on the serve as described by Bruce Elliott & associates for the last 2 decades.

Biomechanics and Tennis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577481/

Video showing ISR.
http://vimeo.com/27528701

The confusion comes about because both ISR with a straight arm and pronation result in the exact same rotation at the wrist. However, ISR is powerfully driven by large muscles (lat & pec) but pronation is driven by much smaller forearm muscles.

[Raul_SJ]

Originally Posted by sureshs

I have seen all their lessons over the years, playing on adjacent courts. They look good while demonstrating stuff, ball arching in with spin and all that. Then then say "let's play some points" and their serves go into the net or long or suck. How can I settle for that? I need to find someone better than me.

The 4th guy is good and I know all the stuff he teaches juniors. It is matter of me doing it.

You, as a 4.0 player, are not better than the club teaching pros.

Just take a private lesson.

[treblings]

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

MYTH: Pronation produces significant racket head speed on the serve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1C6V_3s4nA

This dated video is not correct and is misleading. It should be replaced to reflect the current biomechanical analysis of the serve. (I'm a big fan of FYB.)

REALITY: Internal shoulder (upper arm rotation) produces the greatest contribution to racket head speed on the serve as described by Bruce Elliott & associates for the last 2 decades.

Biomechanics and Tennis
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2577481/

Video showing ISR.
http://vimeo.com/27528701

The confusion comes about because both ISR and pronation result in the exact same rotation at the wrist. However, ISR is powerfully driven by large muscles (lat & pec) but pronation is driven by much smaller forearm muscles.

you´re making interesting points. it´s clear that the power comes mainly from the large muscle groups. but are you saying, that there is no active forearm and wrist pronation? that it happens automatically with no intent from the player? and is something of a byproduct?

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Raul_SJ

You, as a 4.0 player, are not better than the club teaching pros.

Just take a private lesson.

Good points.

I am actually better than 3 of them. Let us put that aside for now since you seem very sure.

I don't feel comfortable taking only one lesson and asking them to look into one issue only. It is a business, and they will be looking for long term commitments. I don't know their preference, but I would be very uncomfortable saying: Here is your X bucks. I am not going to warm up or do unrelated drills - already warmed up at home and on the next court. I prefer not to pick up balls, but will do it if you force me to. I want answers to these 2 questions only. After that, I will never take any lesson from you.

It is not fair to them.

I also know exactly what they teach, having been in the next court for years now.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by treblings

i suggest renaming the thread in: "How to improve my serve without a coach and without practicing"

@ LeeD: i guess the offer to fly you in and set you up at a resort is out of the window now

consistency comes with consistent training. consistent means regular and concentrating on the same one or two issues over a prolonged period of time, if possible under professional guidance. there´s your magic tip for free

This thread is just a placeholder, as requested by people. Don't take the title literally. This thread is what you want it to be. A blank slate, tabula rasa.

And offer to LeeD stands. In person, I can force him to be more specific.

[Chas Tennis]

Originally Posted by treblings

.......................power comes mainly from the large muscle groups. but are you saying, that there is no active forearm and wrist pronation? that it happens automatically with no intent from the player? and is something of a byproduct?

I don't think as much in terms of power, which is a difficult thing to estimate as each phase of the serve occurs. The question of which muscles provide the most 'power' overall to the serve is important but the details are more useful to focus on. I think more in terms of specific joints, attached muscles, velocity and a specific phase of the serve. Most important is the last phase just before impact and its racket head speed. At that time, some muscles have been pre-stretched and are shortening rapidly to act through the hand to give the final racket head speed the instant before impact. Looking back into the earlier serve motion phases in videos, you can clearly identify some of the motions that stretched the specific muscles, for example, lat stretch from leg thrust. There are other motions that involve the trunk and shoulders that probably produce stretch but are more difficult to observe in video and understand. I am now trying to see the supination and pronation earlier in the motion discussed in another thread. [Supination stretches the pronation muscles.]

Term Usage - I am using the term pronation to mean motion in that forearm rotation direction and not joint position. The usage - for position or location - is ambiguous. I have seen forum discussions where one party was talking position and another was talking location. Search - pronation in anatomy usage and usually the word means location and not a rotating motion. On this forum it usually means a rotating motion. The overall arm rotation rate at the wrist is the sum of the internal shoulder rotation and pronation angular rotation rates.

I saw a graph that showed pronation rates: 1)some pronation earlier in the serve motion and 2) a lot of pronation later, after impact, but 3) not very much pronation rotation rate at impact. In video, I can see the large pronation following impact but I can't distinguish the smaller pronation and supination earlier in the motion, too confusing, also elbow and wrist angles are too difficult to see without markers. I believe that both pronation and supination are important. I believe that strong serves probably have little conscious active pronation the instant before impact and give the arm a relaxed feeling. I have hit a very small percent of serves with a 'relaxed' arm and have gotten strong serves doing it. But that is not my normal match serve which has some tightness.

Speculation: In a powerful serve it may be physically impossible for the small pronation muscles to pronate the arm & racket just before impact because the powerful ISR muscles are already angularly accelerating the arm & racket so forcefully. ? Similarly, you can't jump up in a rocket ship accelerating at 4 G's, you would be hard pressed in your seat.

Research: Elliott, I believe, has said that pronation functions to orient the racket face and that ISR provides the largest contribution to racket head speed. I believe that practicing the serve is training including to reproduce a certain degree of pronation for racket face string direction at impact.

Active & Passive Muscle Shortening and Sensations/Feelings - When you walk your muscles are actively and passively shortening to supply forces. I believe that the passive shortening from pre-stretch muscle has little feeling of effort, relaxed. Also, for the active component of muscle shortening, because we are so well trained at walking we don't/hardly consciously/deliberately notice that we are sending nerve impulses (EMG signals) to the legs. If you are trained for the serve do you 'consciously' send nerve signals to muscles, probably not, especially since there are 600 muscles in the body and many are involved in the serve? It would be nice to find some research clarifying the feelings for active and passive muscle shortening. It might explain what a 'relaxed arm' is, what 'muscling the ball' is - in terms of muscle theory passive & active muscle shortening and sensations. When I completely 'relax' my serving arm and don't 'muscle the ball' am I using mostly passive pre-stretched muscle shortening to hit the serve?

[Power Player]

Originally Posted by sureshs

How is a guy like Radek Stepanek, who seems to be so casual about his serve, no big motions, and not very physically endowed either, able to get in decent ATP-level serves? Is there some secret?

I believe there is a secret. It is the racquet drop and swing to contact. For me at least. Getting the arm loose and like a hinge during this part changes everything.

[Chas Tennis]

I believe that an Australian Open TV announcer said that Almagro was 5th in aces in 2012. I tried to confirm the stat but could not find it yet.

In my opinion, Almagro has the loosest arm in pro tennis.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Power Player

I believe there is a secret. It is the racquet drop and swing to contact. For me at least. Getting the arm loose and like a hinge during this part changes everything.

Will keep that in mind today. Weekday nights present the real challenge for me. Weekends I am automatically loose. But weekdays, the cr*p builds up over the day and doesn't go away.

[Power Player]

The best description of what I am talking about is on the Feel Tennis web site. He has a drill that shows how to groove in the proper racquet drop. It will get it so you automatically supinate the shoulder and all that other stuff people obsess about on here. The difference is that you won't be thinking about all that stuff, you will just be hitting serves with a loose arm and a proper racquet drop.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Power Player

The best description of what I am talking about is on the Feel Tennis web site. He has a drill that shows how to groove in the proper racquet drop. It will get it so you automatically supinate the shoulder and all that other stuff people obsess about on here. The difference is that you won't be thinking about all that stuff, you will just be hitting serves with a loose arm and a proper racquet drop.

I read parts of it and I am reading it again, but frankly I am taking it with a grain of salt. His contention that power does not come from strength but from technique does not explain the upper body strengthening exercises that tennis players do these days. Agassi was well known for pioneering that with Gil Reyes, and now everyone is doing it, including the women. So I am not buying all he says.

[Power Player]

Just watch the video I described. That is all I am talking about. He is right about technique being key over power. The thing is that he is just trying to get you to not muscle the ball. It is rare I see any rec player who does not muscle their serve.

Of course if you have that technique down and add muscle, you will only improve your strength and play better. But good technique will give you a loose arm, which will give you a real serve. That is the main thing to focus on first.

[mightyrick]

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

REALITY: Internal shoulder (upper arm rotation) produces the greatest contribution to racket head speed on the serve as described by Bruce Elliott & associates for the last 2 decades.

^ This.

The coiling and uncoiling of the body is so underrated. I used to always struggle with creating pace on my serve -- I used to always arm and muscle it.

Then, I saw a slow motion video of Stefan Edberg serving. When Edberg starts his motion, he literally turns his shoulders and head and looks at the side fence. Then he tosses the ball and goes through his motion. And he gets unbelievable flat pop on his ball.

So all I did was do what he does. I pointed my front foot at about 33 degrees relative to the baseline. Before I toss the ball, I turn my head and shoulders a little bit to where I am facing the side fence. I swear this added a ton of effortless pace to my serve. The power of uncoiling the torso and shoulder is huge.

I was absolutely stunned at the difference such a small tweak could make. And my service motion is FAR from orthodox and fundamental. I recommend anyone to just try this small, simple thing.

[Power Player]

Yes, but that is just the start. Trophy pose means racquet and face point towards side fence. It is not going to ensure internal shoulder rotation.

What does that is how you drop the racquet and swing up after incorporating what you described.