Single handed backhand for juniors...

[BevelDevil]

Originally Posted by luvforty

that sounds like a matter of preference

It's not preference. It's just my guess about what method will get kids using a workable 1hbh.

And my guess is that if a kid tries to copy dimitrov from scratch, he will be outperformed by 2-handers, as well as by 1-handers using a more simple model. Consistency will be tough, and so will high balls. Then, competitive pressure and/or frustration will then drive him to the 2hbh.


It's just my guess though. But it makes sense to think simpler is more effective for beginners. They can add other stuff later, which is what usually happens.

If a young kid wants to hit like the pros, he should probably follow the steps the pros took to develop their swing, rather that immediately try to mimic the end product. Learn algebra before calculus.


Federer himself started with much more basic, conventional strokes. Watch this video of Federer playing when he was 16:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30R-Oyk-A1c

While there are flashes of his future strokes, they are noticably more rigid in this vid. It was only later that he fully developed and consistently used his distict bh and forehand.

Patience pays off, especially if we're talking about young juniors.

[marosmith]

Originally Posted by sureshs

I am watching Almagro-Ferrer now, and while Al had several flashy DTL BHs (one at 90 mph), overall, many of his BHs are going short, and many of the attempted deeper ones are going long. I see a very clear superiority of control of the 2 hander by Ferrer, including much better net clearance, while Al is skimming the net. I really don't see a future for the 1 hander.

I guess your commentary is opposite of everyone on TV and everyone else who watched the match.

[FrisbeeFool]

Originally Posted by luvforty

@cheetah - pulling the butt, sure, no argument there.

both new guy like dimitrov and old guy like sampras pull the butt.... question is how do you get to a finish like dimitrov's

Flexibility, a lot of racket head speed, solid fundamentals, years of training etc. etc.

Not everybody has the flexibility to hit a forehand like Djokovic either. It's easier to focus on the fundamentals when you're teaching before you get to the advanced stuff. You have to crawl before you walk. From your post's, I can tell you have no idea what the basic fundamentals of a one-handed backhand are.

[FrisbeeFool]

It's all about personal comfort. And what works best for the individual player, and having a flexible coach that can work with the player and teach in a way that makes sense to them.

Federer has said he couldn't hit a two hander well and it felt awkward and he gravitated towards the one hander. Djokovic started out with a one-hander but later switched to a 2 hander because the one-hander wasn't the shot for him.

Hopefully the coach understands the fundamentals of the one-hander and 2 hander and can teach both.

The coach I took lessons from played D1 and hit a 2 hander in college. He still had the ability to teach me a very sound one-hander when he realized that was the easier more natural shot for me.

[boramiNYC]

Originally Posted by BevelDevil

If a young kid wants to hit like the pros, he should probably follow the steps the pros took to develop their swing, rather that immediately try to mimic the end product. Learn algebra before calculus.

That's very true. That's why I see value in all the traditional and conventional teachings. It's much easier to add things on and fine tune from there.

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by boramiNYC

That's very true. That's why I see value in all the traditional and conventional teachings. It's much easier to add things on and fine tune from there.

a similar debate can be made on the fh side.... do you teach the above the shoulder finish to the jr beginners, or the ww finish with hand to the left side of the body?

i don't think a detour is needed.... others think otherwise.. that's fine.

[luvforty]

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

Flexibility, .

no - that jr girl is flexible enough, but the racket is nowhere near Dimi's finish.

it's a completely different body language.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by marosmith

I guess your commentary is opposite of everyone on TV and everyone else who watched the match.

Everyone is impressed by the flashiness and the 90 mph DTL shots. I saw what really happened. As the match progressed, the BH got shorter and shorter, and gave Ferrer the small chance to start an offensive phase, eventually leading him to dominate. The deeper BHs went in only when backed by utmost confidence - a little nerves and they went long.

[luvforty]

Almagro's bh is quite old school (flattish shot).

[marosmith]

Originally Posted by sureshs

Everyone is impressed by the flashiness and the 90 mph DTL shots. I saw what really happened. As the match progressed, the BH got shorter and shorter, and gave Ferrer the small chance to start an offensive phase, eventually leading him to dominate. The deeper BHs went in only when backed by utmost confidence - a little nerves and they went long.

Wrong, it was the forehand cross court exchanges he was losing, most of the winners and forced errors were generated by his backhand and the bh to bh rallied were dominated by Almagro's superior BH

[jakeytennis]

i think some young kids are not strong enough for a 1hbh.
its harder to learn the grip
and also the muscle asymetry

[sureshs]

Not directly relevant to this thread, but wasn't Ferrer hitting many backhands by thrusting the racket straight forward without bringing it around?

[luvforty]

it's not a backhand... it's called a 2 handed shove

[luvforty]

Ash - your turn.

[Avles]

Originally Posted by marosmith

Wrong, it was the forehand cross court exchanges he was losing, most of the winners and forced errors were generated by his backhand and the bh to bh rallied were dominated by Almagro's superior BH

Match stats, for what it's worth:

Forehand Winners: Ferrer 13 Almagro 13
Forehand UE: Ferrer 27 Almagro 31

Backhand Winners: Ferrer 3 Almagro 10
Backhand UE: Ferrer 15 Almagro 24

In sets 3 and 4 Almagro had 4 BH winners and 17 BH UE. (Compared to 8 FH winners and 17 FH errors).

Unfortunately the stats don't tell us what happened to the BHs that weren't winners or errors. And I suspect that Almagro had more FH than BH winners on routine short-ball putaways.

But the backhand definitely seemed to go south on him in the latter stages of the match.

[Avles]

Originally Posted by marosmith

Wrong, it was the forehand cross court exchanges he was losing, most of the winners and forced errors were generated by his backhand and the bh to bh rallied were dominated by Almagro's superior BH

Match stats, for what it's worth:

Forehand Winners: Ferrer 13 Almagro 13
Forehand UE: Ferrer 27 Almagro 31

Backhand Winners: Ferrer 3 Almagro 10
Backhand UE: Ferrer 15 Almagro 24

In sets 3 and 4 Almagro had 4 BH winners and 18 BH UE. (Compared to 8 FH winners and 17 FH errors).

Unfortunately the stats don't tell us what happened to the BHs that weren't winners or errors.

[sureshs]

Originally Posted by Avles

In sets 3 and 4 Almagro had 4 BH winners and 18 BH UE. (Compared to 8 FH winners and 17 FH errors).

That pretty much proved what I said

[luvforty]

where do you guys get stats like this?

do you have the BH stats for Wawrinka in the loss to Joker?

I am trying to prove a point that the new style is a better stroke than the old.

[BeHappy]

Originally Posted by luvforty

a similar debate can be made on the fh side.... do you teach the above the shoulder finish to the jr beginners, or the ww finish with hand to the left side of the body?

i don't think a detour is needed.... others think otherwise.. that's fine.

It doesn't matter. Look at Federer and Tsonga, they don't care where they finish.

[BevelDevil]

Originally Posted by luvforty

Almagro's bh is quite old school (flattish shot).

Not really. He raises his right shoulder / drops his left a lot, in addition to opening his chest somewhat.



There should probably be a separate thread about this particular shoulder-tilt method.

Originally Posted by FrisbeeFool

It's all about personal comfort. And what works best for the individual player, and having a flexible coach that can work with the player and teach in a way that makes sense to them.

Agreed. But I think the bone of contention here is what exactly those fundamentals are, and (probably more debateable) how much simplification beginners should be presented with.