Are the WTA players not strong enough for the WW forehand?

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by 2ManyAces

based on the picture, simply observe that each player is taking the racquet back at different points.

Rafa is taking it back quite noticeably less than Sharapova. This means he can use more time to calculate the shot etc, and then use his sheer muscle to bring the racquet around.

Sharapova needs to bring the racquet back slightly farther than Rafa because she simply does not have the muscle mass that Rafa possesses.

The point of that picture, which comes from virtualtennisacademy.com, is to show that Sharapova takes the racquet back behind her back and rafa keeps the racquet on the same side of the body and in line with ball. It's not an issue of strength. It's technique. Rafa will use ssc and lag etc to generate rhs and spin and sharapova uses her arm mostly.

Many women today have atp type forehands. Li Na is one for example.

[luvforty]

so pova arms the ball? lol

[2ManyAces]

I doubt it's all arm.

[Cheetah]

I said mostly and If you don't think think she is using her arm then why the big take back? How do you think the racquet catches up to her rotation? magic? Watch her in slomo. You can see her arm moving forward faster than her torso. That means she's using her arm. As opposed to rafa who's racquet lags behind until he slow his rotation and the arm rips around.

And i said she 'uses her arm'. i didnt say she 'arms it'. there's a difference.

[luvforty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2VYJ_uIxyg

from the end of the backswing, to about when the ball gets to the baseline, the arm/torso relationship is the same...... then she stops the torso and let the arm go forward by itself.

pause the video and go frame with the right arrow on the key board.

so the arm never had to 'catch up'.... it is always in sync (by design anyways), then at the last moment it goes ahead of the core.

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by luvforty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2VYJ_uIxyg

from the end of the backswing, to about when the ball gets to the baseline, the arm/torso relationship is the same...... then she stops the torso and let the arm go forward by itself.

pause the video and go frame with the right arrow on the key board.

so the arm never had to 'catch up'.... it is always in sync (by design anyways), then at the last moment it goes ahead of the core.

the arm is moving slightly. she's using arm. she's not arming it. there's a difference. if it were no arm there would be lag. that's why the atp guys have a lag. the guys rotate and the racquet stays back until it's pulled around.

[luvforty]

tomayto tomahto

[Cheetah]

Originally Posted by luvforty

tomayto tomahto

no. arming it is not the same as using your arm.

[sureshs]

Their stance is somewhat different, you don't know the speed of the ball in each case, you don't know what the intent is, etc. You cannot just compare two still photos.

[rkelley]

There's definitely a technique difference. A lot of the women are taking the racquet way back on the backswing like Sharapova, But I think there is a strength component too.

With the big take back the racquet's being accelerated from way behind the body. By the time it gets to the contact zone the racquet's going through the ball. This basically makes it impossible to get much of a swing path up and across the ball to generate the big spin. You can't redirect the swing path to go up once it as all of that momentum going forward.

There's definitely a lot of core rotation going into generating the power, but most of it is going forward into the ball.

The men and a few of the women, in contrast, keep the take back more or less in front and to the side. Their swing path is has a huge vertical component. They use their legs and core to load up energy in their arm and wrist in supination and extention. All of this energy then unloads onto the ball in pronation, which produces the spin, and flexion, which drives the racquet through the ball.

Where strength can come into this equation is that you have to be strong enough to load up and store all of that energy. Try swinging a baseball bat with modern ATP forehand technique. It's hard. A very big, strong person might be able to do it, but most people aren't strong enough to whip a baseball bat. I would think most guys could do that with a tennis racquet. Bigger, stronger guys will have an even easier time than smaller, weaker ones. Most women . . . I don't know. It's going to be harder for them.

If you can't whip it like an ATP forehand, the other choice is a simpler swing right through the contact zone - like a lot of the women use.

[TheCheese]

I think the reason the ATP style forehand is so rare is because the WTA style is so much easier when you're first starting. Of course, when you get better it's a much riskier shot with a less desirable outcome, but by that time most players are not going to change.

The WTA style is just pushing through the ball while rotating at the elbow. It's very simple in concept, but very difficult to control because it takes perfect timing and positioning.

The ATP style allows the forearm and shoulder to store elastic energy as it lags behind and then when the arm comes through it allows players to create massive amounts of racket head speed. It also allows players to simultaneously increase the amount of spin with pace, rather than trading one for the other. It's a much more forgiving stroke, gives way more control, and gives you way more options. It's just harder to learn, so not many people bother.

And also, yes, Raonic's forehand mechanics are bad and basically WTA style. He can't get spin without trading a ton of pace, similar to roddick.

[dominikk1985]

so let's make a List of ATP FHs in the WTA:

Stosur, Schiavone, Kuznetsova, henin, mauresmo

others that maybe qualify:
Schnyder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzyNQFDHtTQ
Na li http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIfYUSE0J4Y

also a lot of the germans:
Goerges http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpTm3P3yBRI
kerber and barthel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEDQJYVjGcs
groenefeld http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oHR_Z2dgtM

so actually there are quite a lot of players with such a forehand.

[eliza]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

I'm not saying that they cannot hit it but they often lack Penetration.

see schiavone. she basically uses an ATP FH (pronated Loop take back, across brushing with a closed racket face, ww finish)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_yc3lylsho

but her FH is not really penetrating (on average, sometimes she crushes a ball). she is a small Person anyway so she is probably wasting her energy into spin (OK she still won a slam)

The question should be directed to a female player (who knows her body better?). But allow me to integrate an info on coaching tennis in Italy. Schiavone is not an exception, but the rule. The "lack of penetration" (your perception of) can be noticed also in men (next time watch an Italian male player).
It is too bad that the industry of coaching has been insofar dominated by misconceptions on what a girl can and cannot do.

[TCF]

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[luvforty]

during the evolution process, the women's job was to pick fruits and berries and carry babies... speed is not required.

men had to hunt.. that's why spin makes sense because they can chase down flat balls.

[eliza]

TCF, you picked my post prior to my correction. I have no intention to pick on any given coach (also b/c he who was named is not present. Fortunately, nowadays girls have truly a magnificent variety of choices in training and coaching, supported not by mere visual comments but bio-mechanical studies. My best wishes to your girl.

[TCF]

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[comeback]

This is a great thread. As a 4.5 tournament player serve and volley, continental grip, lots of slice from both sides, old school 62 years old..i have been practicing the modern WW forehand with a semi western the last 6 months against the wall and in some matches with mixed results..When i do flatten it out ie WTA style i like it better especially on return of serve..The excessive wrist on the WW and poly strings necessary takes a toll on us seniors..It takes a strong fast whip to hit back a high hard topspin forehand.
Another thing to address is where the player stands. Fed ,Djok, Agassi stand up on the baseline taking the ball on the rise and SNAP..
Ferrer, Murray are back further, let the ball drop a little more.
Here are 2 WTA forehands from Capriati and Hingis I'm now trying to copy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfi7Ht1vhpk Capriati

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCz69qhmZWc Hingis

[rkelley]

Originally Posted by comeback

This is a great thread. As a 4.5 tournament player serve and volley, continental grip, lots of slice from both sides, old school 62 years old..i have been practicing the modern WW forehand with a semi western the last 6 months against the wall and in some matches with mixed results..When i do flatten it out ie WTA style i like it better especially on return of serve..The excessive wrist on the WW and poly strings necessary takes a toll on us seniors..It takes a strong fast whip to hit back a high hard topspin forehand.

You might try a blended string bed. I use a Luxilon Rough in the mains and Babolat Xcel in the crosses. It really softens up the string bed but you can still get the big spin.

[dominikk1985]

Originally Posted by comeback

This is a great thread. As a 4.5 tournament player serve and volley, continental grip, lots of slice from both sides, old school 62 years old..i have been practicing the modern WW forehand with a semi western the last 6 months against the wall and in some matches with mixed results..When i do flatten it out ie WTA style i like it better especially on return of serve..The excessive wrist on the WW and poly strings necessary takes a toll on us seniors..It takes a strong fast whip to hit back a high hard topspin forehand.
Another thing to address is where the player stands. Fed ,Djok, Agassi stand up on the baseline taking the ball on the rise and SNAP..
Ferrer, Murray are back further, let the ball drop a little more.
Here are 2 WTA forehands from Capriati and Hingis I'm now trying to copy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xfi7Ht1vhpk Capriati

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCz69qhmZWc Hingis

Isn't hingis more of a ww FH?