Free weights VS resistance bands ?

[dominikk1985]

Originally Posted by Itagaki

Bro, you gotta get that variable resistance!

After all, ALL the guys at WESTSIDE-****ING-BARBELL do it!!! And Louie Simmons is the most logical, intelligent, sane individual in the world of strength

/sarcasm

TRX is a waste of time though

well his System definitely works as his guys get super strong (but with roids...).

however nole Looks like an anorexic child and he is number one in the world, so maybe we don't Need a ton of weight Training.

[Itagaki]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

well his System definitely works as his guys get super strong (but with roids...).

however nole Looks like an anorexic child and he is number one in the world, so maybe we don't Need a ton of weight Training.

The point being that what Simmons has done works for what westside wants. That is get strong in a very specific powerlifting federation, one not known for being strict on depth, and yes they are pretty much all on drugs. If any person has come out of westside and been successful in the USAPL or IPF i'd be pretty impressed.

The other point being that some of the stuff Louie says is batshit insane. Like the fact that he completely believes that his methods would apply perfectly to Olympic weightlifters, and that given the opportunity he could produce an international champion with those methods. I also think he's made claims that Olympic weightlifting is a trick, not real strength etc etc.

[dominikk1985]

Originally Posted by Itagaki

The point being that what Simmons has done works for what westside wants. That is get strong in a very specific powerlifting federation, one not known for being strict on depth, and yes they are pretty much all on drugs. If any person has come out of westside and been successful in the USAPL or IPF i'd be pretty impressed.

The other point being that some of the stuff Louie says is batshit insane. Like the fact that he completely believes that his methods would apply perfectly to Olympic weightlifters, and that given the opportunity he could produce an international champion with those methods. I also think he's made claims that Olympic weightlifting is a trick, not real strength etc etc.

yes but still those guys are super strong. much stronger than anyone would Need to be in Tennis. I'm sure that most top Tennis Players only bench like 200 or so, maybe the bigger ones like 300. you simply don't Need those Levels of strength for Tennis.

[WildVolley]

Originally Posted by dominikk1985

yes but still those guys are super strong. much stronger than anyone would Need to be in Tennis. I'm sure that most top Tennis Players only bench like 200 or so, maybe the bigger ones like 300. you simply don't Need those Levels of strength for Tennis.

I thought it was settled that you need to be able to squat 2.5x your body weight in order to safely play tennis.

[Itagaki]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

I thought it was settled that you need to be able to squat 2.5x your body weight in order to safely play tennis.

Hahahahaha

To be fair I think it was stated that 2.5xbw was something an elite level player should reach.

It also happens to be more than anyone on this forum squats

[Chas Tennis]

FYI - Famous weightlifter from the 1970s Olympics - "Worlds's Strongest Man" Vasily Alekseyev.

Maybe some of you remember this champion Russian weightlifter prominent in the Olympics in the 1970s.

Brief history
http://store.sorinex.com/Articles.asp?ID=253

Records and comments by contempories.
http://www.chidlovski.net/liftup/l_a...ult.asp?a_id=5

Clean & Jerk Video, includes setting his 66th world record.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ngko5tAwkk

Alekseyev's squat training for the Olympic clean & jerk. See his comments on the squat in training.
http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sporti...ticles004.html

Squat 270 Kg, body weight about 160 Kg (350 lbs).
He squatted about 1.7X body weight to train for the clean & jerk.

Interview.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/we...ev-340962.html

Steriods?
http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/pass...r/history.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/28/sp...dies.html?_r=0

I once read that he would get out of breath relatively easily climbing stairs when he was a competitor but I could not just now confirm that information searching the internet.

[Itagaki]

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

FYI - Famous weightlifter from the 1970s Olympics - "Worlds's Strongest Man" Vasily Alekseyev.

Maybe some of you remember this champion Russian weightlifter prominent in the Olympics in the 1970s.

Brief history
http://store.sorinex.com/Articles.asp?ID=253

Records and comments by contempories.
http://www.chidlovski.net/liftup/l_a...ult.asp?a_id=5

Clean & Jerk Video, includes setting his 66th world record.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ngko5tAwkk

Alekseyev's squat training for the Olympic clean & jerk. See his comments on the squat in training.
http://www.dynamic-eleiko.com/sporti...ticles004.html

Squat 270 Kg, body weight about 160 Kg (350 lbs).
He squatted about 1.7X body weight to train for the clean & jerk.

Interview.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/we...ev-340962.html

Steriods?
http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/pass...r/history.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/28/sp...dies.html?_r=0

I once read that he would get out of breath relatively easily climbing stairs when he was a competitor but I could not just now confirm that information searching the internet.

Several points

One of course Alexeev was on drugs. Two 270kg does not represent his limit strength, simply what he chose to train with. Obviously he is capable of far more (if you disagree with this i'd love to see an argument as to why). This is simply representative of his training methodology, not his capabilities.

Russian weightlifter Dmitri Klokov is never seen back squatting but reports are that his "max" is 300kg. In all likelihood this is not a true max as he can be seen doing a 250kg front squat with something like a 4 second pause in the hole. It's simply not a lift they train for their sport because their programming does not call for it, and the drugs they're likely on does not necessitate it.

Max Aita has squatted 302kg at a bodyweight of 100kg but his best clean and jerk was 170kg (granted at the time he made that lift his best squat was probably closer to 250kg and at a bodyweight of around 85kg)

Further, bodyweight multipliers do not apply well to heavier individuals. That's the reason why the sinclair coefficient and wilks score exist in Olympic Weightlifting and Powerlifting respectively. There's a reason why the only guy to ever deadlift over 5xBW did it under 140lbs and the two guys that have deadlifted over 1000lbs had a multiplier of under 4xbw.

[Chas Tennis]

After 2.5 BW was mentioned so often as a joke I decided to research the most famous bodybuilder that I was familiar with. I thought that he would be strong in squatting also, probably in competitions. Apparently not. I thought that the story might be generally interesting especially to those who remember Vasily Alekseyev in the Olympics.

Thanks for the interesting information.

[Itagaki]

Originally Posted by Chas Tennis

After 2.5 BW was mentioned so often as a joke I decided to research the most famous bodybuilder that I was familiar with. I thought that he would be strong in squatting also, probably in competitions. Apparently not. I thought that the story might be generally interesting especially to those who remember Vasily Alekseyev in the Olympics.

Thanks for the interesting information.

Not sure if the last part is sarcastic or not

Here's Tom Platz (bodybuilder) doing 500lbsx23

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjtVvYk1HWw

Various reports say that this was post retirement and that he was stronger in his competitions days, and he weighed around 200lbs when he did this (which would make this about a 2.5xbw set)

Tom like to play tennis apparently

[WildVolley]

Originally Posted by Itagaki

Not sure if the last part is sarcastic or not

Here's Tom Platz (bodybuilder) doing 500lbsx23

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjtVvYk1HWw

Various reports say that this was post retirement and that he was stronger in his competitions days, and he weighed around 200lbs when he did this (which would make this about a 2.5xbw set)

Tom like to play tennis apparently

I'm a fan of a squatting, but I was ridiculing the 2.5x standard a little bit. That's a very elite standard for most people. And Platz is a horrible example for a tennis player as he was known for his freakish leg strength and size.

The average tennis player would need to go on an extensive steroids and eating routine to get the muscle mass to do multiple reps with 2.5x bodyweight.

[Itagaki]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

I'm a fan of a squatting, but I was ridiculing the 2.5x standard a little bit. That's a very elite standard for most people. And Platz is a horrible example for a tennis player as he was known for his freakish leg strength and size.

The average tennis player would need to go on an extensive steroids and eating routine to get the muscle mass to do multiple reps with 2.5x bodyweight.

Once again I wouldn't call it elite (unless you're on the heavier end) in absolute terms. Perhaps for tennis though but that level of absolute strength is likely unnecessary. I.e. chasing a 2.5xbw won't do as much for your tennis game as actually improving technique

I wasn't intending to use Tom as an example of a tennis player that squats, rather as a better example of a bodybuilder that squats very well for Chas, in contrast to whomever he looked up

[WildVolley]

Originally Posted by Itagaki

Once again I wouldn't call it elite (unless you're on the heavier end) in absolute terms. Perhaps for tennis though but that level of absolute strength is likely unnecessary. I.e. chasing a 2.5xbw won't do as much for your tennis game as actually improving technique

I wasn't intending to use Tom as an example of a tennis player that squats, rather as a better example of a bodybuilder that squats very well for Chas, in contrast to whomever he looked up

When I was a sprinter, I don't recall anyone doing 2.5x bw, and one of my team mates made the Olympic trials in the 100 meters. One of my friends would do sets with about 2.5x bodyweight but he was a lunatic (though natural amateur bodybuilder) who would sometimes vomit blood after a particularly heavy set. It just seems quite rare to me (perhaps not elite) for any amateur athlete to squat 2.5x bw, except for power lifters and serious bodybuilders.

At that time, I could pull 2.5x my bodyweight with straps, but I was never good at the back squat.

[Itagaki]

Originally Posted by WildVolley

When I was a sprinter, I don't recall anyone doing 2.5x bw, and one of my team mates made the Olympic trials in the 100 meters. One of my friends would do sets with about 2.5x bodyweight but he was a lunatic (though natural amateur bodybuilder) who would sometimes vomit blood after a particularly heavy set. It just seems quite rare to me (perhaps not elite) for any amateur athlete to squat 2.5x bw, except for power lifters and serious bodybuilders.

At that time, I could pull 2.5x my bodyweight with straps, but I was never good at the back squat.

It could be that I'm spoiled by being surrounded by strong individuals on a daily basis and am so close to 2.5xbw that I dont think it's a big deal, but in reality it could be a lot rarer than my exposure

Vomiting blood after a set does not sound good though, sure he was natural?

[dominikk1985]

the lighter you are the easier it is to squat 2 times or whatever BW. there is not a linear correlation between lifted weight and BW.

a 2 times BW squatter at 250 is much stronger than a 2 times BW squatter at 160.
for that reason powerlifters use the wilks formula to compare weight classes and not simple times BW.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilks_Coefficient

regarding Alexeev: 270 was a pinky weight for him, he could easily handle well over 300 kilos. however still very few at close to 300 pounds is squatting 2.5 times BW (unequipped) while you won't win anything with a 2.5 times BW squat at 150.

times BW for a squat is just raw measurement (although tennis players all fall in a pretty small weight range from 160-180 (unless they are "freaks" like isner, karlovic or rochus on the other side of the spectrum).

[Chas Tennis]

Who are some the more successful tennis players that have been more heavily muscled? Especially in the legs and glutes?

Not a very well informed view of the muscle cell but -

In terms of the stretch shortening cycle, the Hill Muscle Model and the microscopic description of muscle cell function, the squat involves mostly actin & myocin active muscle shortening. There may be some stretch used in some squatting techniques at the bottom.

The actin-myosin active shortening appears to be slow in this animation.
http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/site...ntraction.html

Illustrations - Actin, Myosin & Titin
https://www.google.com/search?q=acti...w=1312&bih=703

Besides the actin & myosin in each muscle sacomere there is a giant protein molecule, Titin, that stretches. Titin has been researched since the 1990s(?) for its passive shortening properties from a pre-stretched state. I believe the current belief is that stretch occurs within each muscle cell because of Titin and is not a property of an overall muscle-tendon spring. For muscle shortening biomechanical researchers study Force vs Velocity of both the active & passive components of muscle shortening. My interpretation of references is that the active shortening provided by the actin & myosin may fail to provide force at high velocities while the passive shortening provided by Titin can still provide force.

Squatting probably more trains the Actin & Myosin for slower movements. Plyometrics probably more trains the Titin for faster movements.

Maybe since the legs in tennis are used mostly for slower motions, such as leg thrust on the serve, maybe squats are useful.

For the faster arm motions maybe the Actin & Myosin training is less important.

Resistance bands can be used at higher velocities where, for example, the mass of dumbbells makes them difficult to stop at higher velocities.